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Post by sugarhigh on Jun 28, 2015 19:31:19 GMT -4
I have conflicting emotions. 1) Missionaries are the worst but 2) it's good that they're getting away from the Duggar parents and 3) their money-grab on the site is gross.
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Post by chonies on Jun 28, 2015 19:39:18 GMT -4
Maybe I'm being small-minded but why can't they serve the poor and glorify their God in their own backyard, or some other place in the US? Why Nepal? I'm with sugarhigh on this one.
ETA:I meant "why Nepal?" in the rhetorical sense. I have a few hypotheses.
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thneed
Landed Gentry
Posts: 816
Jun 19, 2006 0:42:40 GMT -4
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Post by thneed on Jun 28, 2015 20:40:03 GMT -4
I'm guessing no one here grew up in a religious community. In some parts of the culture it's normal to do mission trips, like doing Junior year abroad or taking a year to travel after college or volunteering with a foreign NGO or teaching English in China. A year of two of travel, enough responsibility to keep you busy but not so much you could fail, a way to get new experiences. And some people like it and stick with it for years after.
Missionary work is a useful thing. You get to travel, and see the world, and really immerse yourself in another culture instead of being a tourist. You get to do something that's (according to your personal value system) useful, and more fun and fulfilling than sitting in an office. Your expenses are usually taken care of, so you get to sit around thinking of the Big Questions.
That's why. I do wonder how it's being paid for though. Is it a regular Baptist ministry, a special Gothard thing, or is TLC in any way involved? I don't think there are other options.
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Post by LAX on Jun 28, 2015 20:44:16 GMT -4
The anti-Duggar FB page is speculating that they're heading to Central America, not Nepal, for this mission trip, and that it might be a mission funded by JimBob for an organization whose actual mission is to usurp the Catholic church's influence in that region by replacing it with the oh so much better! fundie flavor of Christianity.
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thneed
Landed Gentry
Posts: 816
Jun 19, 2006 0:42:40 GMT -4
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Post by thneed on Jun 28, 2015 21:26:21 GMT -4
What's wrong with missionary trips? I'm not religious at all, but I don;t see what's so bad about a group of people (peacefully, with respect for human rights and dignity) trying to convince others to share in their belief system. Isn't that the same thing as all Western charities that aim to improve the lot of the developing world, by building schools or eliminating FGM, and so on?
Personally, I'm just shocked at how little fallout there's been for the family. You would think someone out there could do something. I mean, police reports about molestation and coverup. I want a Jerry Sandusky moment here.
Way off topic for the thread, but I'm always surprised the evangelical athiests like Richard Dawkins and Bill Maher don;t do the equivalent of mission trips. If religion is as bad as they say, you'd thing the developing world would need atheist missionaries. It would be a much better use of their time than being snotty to a bunch of cheering followers.
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Post by Hamatron on Jun 28, 2015 21:46:11 GMT -4
Because often orgs will offer to build a bridge only if the group builds a church.
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Post by chonies on Jun 28, 2015 22:10:15 GMT -4
What's wrong with missionary trips? I'm not religious at all, but I don;t see what's so bad about a group of people (peacefully, with respect for human rights and dignity) trying to convince others to share in their belief system. Isn't that the same thing as all Western charities that aim to improve the lot of the developing world, by building schools or eliminating FGM, and so on? I dislike the principle of missionary trips because I find them chauvinistic and asymmetrical. I also know it's patronizing to try to protect people from other belief systems, but I don't think that beliefs exist in isolation, so it's not just a spiritual conversation. The missionaries also don't have to deal with the consequences of their impact. There's criticism against a lot of western charities, too: one to one charity models like Toms shoes are disruptive to local economies, and so are voluntourism efforts like building a house over spring break. Building schools and clinics sounds really good and ecumenical, except there are often hidden issues that outsiders are unaware of, such as the politics of the language of instruction, the sustainability of sourcing textbooks and teachers, and setting up clinics that may not have consistent supplies, staffing or other needs, like completely different belief systems on disease, or investing in diseases that local people might think are low priority. They're parallel questions, but definitely not the same thing. And I might be wrong, but from what I've read, most Duggar-level missionaries are only spreading their beliefs, not setting up a clinic or helping with irrigation. I'm guessing no one here grew up in a religious community. In some parts of the culture it's normal to do mission trips, like doing Junior year abroad or taking a year to travel after college or volunteering with a foreign NGO or teaching English in China. A year of two of travel, enough responsibility to keep you busy but not so much you could fail, a way to get new experiences. And some people like it and stick with it for years after. Missionary work is a useful thing. You get to travel, and see the world, and really immerse yourself in another culture instead of being a tourist. You get to do something that's (according to your personal value system) useful, and more fun and fulfilling than sitting in an office. Your expenses are usually taken care of, so you get to sit around thinking of the Big Questions. I think this is another major criticism. Who benefits? Almost definitely not the local villagers who often have to shoulder the burden of meddling dumdum foreigners who don't know how to act right or protect themselves against local problems (other villagers, pests, diseases, strange weather). Yes, I know missionaries often get cultural training, and this also goes for the Peace Corps types, but my impression of Peace Corps or other non-religious volunteers is that they are more interested in local solutions to local problems, not instructing people about how what they're doing is wrong, and by the way, they're going to hell. Of course, there are a ton of variables embedded in whatever context the missionaries find themselves in, the existing cultural infrastructure, and whatever their actual mission is. My friend was an LDS missionary in St Petersburg, so she had a very different experience than a missionary who went to the Amazon to translate the New Testament for the very first time. There's also a long legacy of missionaries doing appalling things: even if Derick and Jill mean well and wouldn't harm anyone, and most missionaries are filled with pure Christian love, they aren't beyond some critical conversations about ethics, not unlike the kinds archaeologists and anthropologists deal with, and perhaps especially. I get that it may be normal in a certain cultural set--it was normal in my cultural sphere to do a study abroad (and I did, twice). But while I understand that, it's not beyond criticism. For one, I went to a developing nation in West Africa, and this experience sharply informed my opinion of missionaries (as did growing up Catholic and reading about missionaries meeting martyrs' fates). I think I mentioned this upthread, but I don't see any evidence of Derick or Jill having useful skills that they can share other than their religious inclinations. The difference is that there are already lots of non-religious organizations that already do lots of good works--Medicins Sans Frontieres, for example. Also, part of the discussion about atheism is that it's not organized much into a movement, although many atheist groups do get involved in local charities as a group and individual atheists volunteer where they please, like individual non-atheists. Today I saw two atheist-sponsored adopt-a-highway signs, and a group I knew did a lot of food drives and other scheduled philanthropy, and usually local. I don't follow Dawkins or Maher closely enough to know what they do with their time or money but I can imagine that most atheists would either not care about their efforts or hold them up to relevant standards, too. I agree--I still wonder what the hold up is. I thought TLC would have made some sort of announcement in either direction right now. I apologize for the dissertation of the above post. I currently live in a Bible beltish area, and nearly all the local 5Ks are fundraisers for mission trips or so someone can evangelically adopt a possibly-not orphaned child from a heathen nation. I don't mean to sound like a jerk, but it's under my skin. ETA: Also, the idea that you have to go somewhere like Nepal or Nicaragua to witness one's faith really bothers me. This is my opinion and my value system, but what's wrong with the Duggars finding a charity in a different part of US and living their beliefs? There are tons of places just a few hundred miles from Arkansas where they can do good works, spread their message, walk their faith, etc. AND where they can get a new perspective on life and think the big questions.
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Post by prisma on Jun 28, 2015 23:23:48 GMT -4
I have mixed feelings about missionaries. I know a number of churches who send medical missions to impoverished areas that really need them. Actually, a friend of mine who's a nurse is going on one with another nurse friend and they're not even members of the church. They just want to "give back" to the greater good using their professional talents. My parents' church is Baptist (which is how I grew up and I'm kind of...well, very prejudiced against most Baptists as a result) and their church regularly sends groups to the Dominican Republic to install water filtration systems. That I'm cool with.
What does bother me is when it's straight up proselytization. I used to work around a woman who is a "celebrity" within the sewing industry. She's Church of Christ and infuses all of her publications and programs with Gospel talk, which goes over gangbusters with the demographic she's serving. People eat it up. I once heard her tell a story about her son, who's a missionary, taking a trip to somewhere in Africa and after some rousing sermon some staggering number of children raised their hands and prayed whatever special prayer her denomination believes you have to pray to be in good with Jesus. To get your "Going to Heaven" card. It's not offered by other denominations or religions. Anyway, I was totally offended by the story. No word about service work. Just that her son has SAVED all these poor little African children. It's that brand of missionaries that feel like they need a quota of souls saved and it's all about their ego that just drives me bonkers. It doesn't matter so much if they starve or die of diseases because now they'll go to heaven when they do. Yay!
My boss for a period of time while I was at this same organization grew up as the daughter of missionaries and her family worked tirelessly for the communities they lived in, but they also had a very narrow view about what flavor of Christianity was acceptable. By the time I worked with this lady, I had become Episcopalian and I could tell that, in her opinion, Episcopalians were just as much in the "going to hell anyway" category as Catholics. I was got trapped in a car with her when she decided to start witnessing to me (keep in mind, she was my boss) and it climaxed with her asking me, "IF YOU DIED TODAY AND WERE STANDING IN FRONT OF GOD, WHAT WOULD YOU SAY?" I was in a weird position because I didn't want to offend my boss but I was so fucking weirded out I can't describe it. I could tell that there was a very specific answer that she was looking for. I just said, "......hi?" and she looked at me with great disappointment. And, praise be to God, by that time we'd reached my apartment and I bolted the hell out of her car.
This particular person is probably not too far afield from Duggar philosophy. More educated, but still pretty evangelical. Shudder. She was miserable to work for.
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Post by chonies on Jun 29, 2015 7:52:48 GMT -4
prisma, I just remembered--there's a "celebrity" missionary family who live in Kenya (I think? East Africa, almost definitely) and the wife has a vintage sewing business. Some of the women of the village work for her to make dresses that are labeled as fair trade, but some people did some sleuthing and it seems that their payment is not actually fair at all.
Related, I've been reading a lot about some of the problems with wildlife preservation in the same parts of the world missionaries tend to gravitate toward, and it's interesting (and hard/sad, as an animal lover) to see how often the problems for the template are the same. Well-meaning outsiders have a belief (in this case, about the sanctity of elephants, lemurs, tortoises, baboons, orangutan, etc) that they try to foster and encourage among many people who see the world very differently.
Topic: my sister had a connection at Discovery Communications but that person is too far from the Duggars to be of any use. We are both disappointed.
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Post by Ladybug on Jun 29, 2015 9:24:30 GMT -4
I did a Catholic mission trip to Mexico over spring break my freshman year, and it had a big effect on me. We travelled to villages and delivered clothes, food, toiletries, and medical supplies to people. We didn't preach, but there was a priest along with us who would say mass in these remote places that didn't have a regular parish. I know several people who do regular missionary work, but their trips are more like vacations where they go to church with the locals(that's what it looks like to me by the pics they post on Facebook). They've been to Guatemala, China, Kenya, and Uganda. My cousin went with a group to Haiti where they provided people with eyeglasses and a heavy dose of preaching. I think there are a lot of well-intentioned people who aren't fully aware of the cultural implications beyond saving souls. I hope my trip didn't have an adverse impact. That mission had been there for 50 years, so it was a pretty well established center of social welfare in the region.
Aside from the missionary aspect, I think it's VERY good for Americans to have the experience of traveling abroad. I hope the best for them.
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