Canada in Pop Culture

[Auroranorth]

I think that some guys don't care because there's no impact on them. They aren't the ones catcalling/harassing/assaulting, so they don't think about it. Plus, they don't see it. Literally, in that it doesn't happen around them, or figuratively, when it does they don't notice because it doesn't happen to them.

[Deleted]

I am glad that Donal wrote that apology, but I hope that the next time he learns of gendered violence, he can stop his knee-jerk reaction and believe the victims. There is also something unsettling for me about it -- this is not necessarily directed at Donal personally, more at male reactions to gendered violence in general, but Donal writes about his sisters and how he would not want anything to happen to them; I often read or hear this in male responses to gendered violence -- "I have sisters, a wife, a mother..." Isn't it possible to fight against gendered violence simply on the basis that it is wrong and that women deserve better? That as human beings we deserve safety, equity, and every-fucking-privilege that men get? Does it always have to be personalized for men?

This is where my real problem is -- the personalizing of women's rights for men. Everything must be about them. I am concerned by the centering of men in women's struggle against patriarchy, e.g. HeforShe. This type of campaign is admirable, wonderful, etc., but there is something also very unsettling about men becoming the focus of our struggle to find space, equity, peace, and safety. I am all for the inclusion of men in the fight for women's rights, but I am not for the centering of men, their voices, needs, wants, expectations in our fight against patriarchy. To paraphrase Abzug, I don't want to be polluted by the mainstream -- I want women to transform the mainstream. I don't want men to change our movement(s) or make it about them.

Last night, I read a bunch of quotes on Buzzfeed by men about gendered violence and gendered discrimination, and the majority were about how gendered violence impacts men -- the theme was it hurts us all (the violence) and it holds us all back (discrimination) except Patrick Stewart. He spoke about how men have to examine their own behavior and how it perpetuates violence against women. Again, I am happy that men are supporting us, but the narrative is off and it is unsettling.

And, those quotes about how violence and discrimination against women impact us all kind of pissed me off. How about these men, who get kudos for being against violence against women, start volunteering at a women's shelter or give up some of their privilege, so that a woman could have an opportunity?

I really like the word "unsettling"!

[bailey]

Lena, brava. This is exactly the problem. Men don't even know that they are personalizing everything, it's about the women, and they can join the fight by listening to us and believing us.

It's not about being personally impacted. It's about women being able to go to work, or on a date, or walk down the street without being assaulted. Not because I am a woman, or because I know someone who has been hurt, but because it's about fucking time that more powerful people don't take advantage of less powerful people.

I was pleased to see the CBC is stepping up, hired a lawyer and invited all employees past and present to speak to her about anything that has happened to them, and promising to treat them all with respect. Let's hope it happens. I believe that we can't have meaningful anti-harassment policies until we indentify just how endemic and widespread it really is.

And I have come to believe that Gomeshi does not actually think that he did anything wrong.

[Deleted]

bailey, I am stealing this line, "...it's about fucking time that more powerful people don't take advantage of less powerful people."

Beautifully and passionately stated.

[bailey]

I tried bringing up the conversation with my co-worker again. He is threatened by the idea that he has white male privilege, and I need to be very careful around that issue, because he is a "good guy", and would never cross the boundaries that we are talking about. But I said, it's very interesting that this whole issue has empowered women to talk about what they have to put up with on a daily basis. We can't make policy on what is appropriate behaviour until we know what actually happens. His response, as a knee jerk reaction was, I need to see proof. He doesn't get the catch 22, women don't report because they won't be believed, so until more women report it, he won't believe it.

The biggest stumbling block is "innocent until proven guilty". I finally got him to agree, women are speaking up, and they are not necessarily asking for conviction of the men who are behaving inappropriately, they are just wanting their voices to be heard, starting with the reasons that they did not speak up sooner.

He is incensed and passionate about issues like poverty and homelessness. When I told him about the woman with the camera and her 8 hours of walking in New York, he asked the usual "how was she dressed", which made me very angry. And then he said he feels the same way walking downtown, being accosted by panhandlers. Ok, I get that, but it's not what we are talking about. And he is absolutely horrified by the issue of female genital mutilation, which he has just found out about. Because that makes the women powerless, and if they speak up about it, their husbands, fathers or brothers will kill them. That makes him mad. So at least we have a starting point for education.

I told him that he can start by speaking up when his really sleazy friend starts making comments about young women at the movie theatre. I said that men should not be allowed to feel that the world is their buffet to take from as they wish. Just because a woman is dressed to be attractive does not mean that men should feel it's appropriate to hit on them.

I'm feeling a little shell shocked, but making progress. One man at a time.

[chonies]

Nov 6, 2014 17:01:47 GMT -4 bailey said:

I tried bringing up the conversation with my co-worker again. He is threatened by the idea that he has white male privilege, and I need to be very careful around that issue, because he is a "good guy", and would never cross the boundaries that we are talking about. But I said, it's very interesting that this whole issue has empowered women to talk about what they have to put up with on a daily basis. We can't make policy on what is appropriate behaviour until we know what actually happens. His response, as a knee jerk reaction was, I need to see proof. He doesn't get the catch 22, women don't report because they won't be believed, so until more women report it, he won't believe it.

The biggest stumbling block is "innocent until proven guilty". I finally got him to agree, women are speaking up, and they are not necessarily asking for conviction of the men who are behaving inappropriately, they are just wanting their voices to be heard, starting with the reasons that they did not speak up sooner.

He is incensed and passionate about issues like poverty and homelessness. When I told him about the woman with the camera and her 8 hours of walking in New York, he asked the usual "how was she dressed", which made me very angry. And then he said he feels the same way walking downtown, being accosted by panhandlers. Ok, I get that, but it's not what we are talking about. And he is absolutely horrified by the issue of female genital mutilation, which he has just found out about. Because that makes the women powerless, and if they speak up about it, their husbands, fathers or brothers will kill them. That makes him mad. So at least we have a starting point for education.

I told him that he can start by speaking up when his really sleazy friend starts making comments about young women at the movie theatre. I said that men should not be allowed to feel that the world is their buffet to take from as they wish. Just because a woman is dressed to be attractive does not mean that men should feel it's appropriate to hit on them.

I'm feeling a little shell shocked, but making progress. One man at a time.

I need a cold compress just reading this. I admire your fortitude.

The FGM bit, though, made the needle skip. FGM is often used as a minimizer in conversations, like, "what are you concerned about catcalls for? Because FGM exists!" Both men and women use it this way, and my own feelings on the matter aside, I think it's fair to say that it's more complicated than FGM=bad.

I don't think this was posted yet (and this story is fast moving, so I apologize if this was already covered) but: whoa. "A culture of fear."

In July of 2012, a core group of staff at the radio show Q began meeting quietly to draft a document complaining that the work culture at the program, then hosted by Jian Ghomeshi, was “unsustainable.”

[bailey]

I think things will snowball. I was just about to read the article about the culture of fear at Q. The Agenda this evening was about #BeenRapedNeverReported I have not watched it yet, but Steve Paikin always does a decent job. I am glad that discussions are starting.

As for the 2 MPs who were fired, apparently the women who originally filed the complaints were not informed and did not want any action to be taken. Very difficult situation all around.

[Mutagen]

Nov 6, 2014 17:01:47 GMT -4 bailey said:

His response, as a knee jerk reaction was, I need to see proof. He doesn't get the catch 22, women don't report because they won't be believed, so until more women report it, he won't believe it.

The biggest stumbling block is "innocent until proven guilty". I finally got him to agree, women are speaking up, and they are not necessarily asking for conviction of the men who are behaving inappropriately, they are just wanting their voices to be heard, starting with the reasons that they did not speak up sooner.

The problem with "innocent until proven guilty" here is that harassers, and rapists for that matter, rely on this.  They are calculating and they generally know not to do it in full view of other people.  They rely on the fact that there will be no witnesses and no physical proof.

I would be tempted to ask your coworker, if another man fondled his crotch/ass but no one was around to see it, would he appreciate being called overemotional/lying/asking for it/out to ruin an innocent person if he tried to do something about it?  I don't completely like using this argument because it can veer into homophobic territory, but people need to put themselves in the victim's shoes. 

[bailey]

That's the thing, there is no proof, and I can choose to believe who I want to. I did hear someone explain that there is a judicial standard in civil court that is "preponderance of evidence", and I will choose to believe that 9 women meet that standard.

He's coming around, we had a very very good discussion today about what the boundaries should be. He was at a live performance that included some dancers, and one of the girls was fairly buxom, he didn't know if he should look away when she bent over and her cleavage was showing. I said, it's ok to look, and appreciate. It's wrong to take that to think "I want a piece of that". And definitely wrong to act on that thought. He gets it and really wants to know what we need to do to change society.

This article summarizes all of the arguments, from the brilliant and funny Elvira Kurt

[Gigiree]

I just saw this video on UpWorthy, and I'm curious to get any Canadian Greecie's perspective on it.