Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows (SPOILERS)

[incognito]

susyhomewrecker said:

I understand what you mean, but I don't think that's the case here. Dumbledore probably had relationships with other men besides Grindelwald, but we didn't know about the majority of Harry's teachers' love lives anyway. Hagrid and Lupin had girlfriends/wives and Snape loved Lily, but the only reason we know about that at all is because in some way, they helped progress the story. Dumbledore's sexuality is just one facet of a very complex character--a facet that wasn't integral to Harry's story.

I think I phrased my earlier post badly. When I mentioned people who had never been in a relationship, I meant when the author doesn't mention it at all. So they are never depicted as being with someone, and by default since it all happens in a fictional universe and these characters don't exist outside of the books, they have never been in a relationship. Maybe this goes back to my belief of what constitutes canon, so if you don't believe in that, then the rest of my argument is a moot point.

But let's say that Dumbledore really does exist in some magical parallel world, and that he did have relationships that were never mentioned in the book. Even so, it bugs me when people automatically jump to the conclusion of, "Oh, she never talks about his relationships. He must be getting some hot same-sex loving!" It's an attitude/conclusion/assumption that I see a lot, and it bothers me.

[kostgard]

Anyway, the fallout from this has been pretty damn amusing. One article I read somewhere said Dumbledore is encouraging people in the closet to come out, which is awesome. Also, David Thewlis says "WTF, I've been playing Lupin gay all along."

Heh. I can just see him thinking, "Hey, wait a minute! I thought I was gay!" after hearing the news.

But let's say that Dumbledore really does exist in some magical parallel world, and that he did have relationships that were never mentioned in the book. Even so, it bugs me when people automatically jump to the conclusion of, "Oh, she never talks about his relationships. He must be getting some hot same-sex loving!" It's an attitude/conclusion/assumption that I see a lot, and it bothers me.

I know what you mean, and it does get irritating. Every time a male celebrity brings his mother to an awards show instead of a girlfriend he's automatically gay.

I've never really thought about the love lives of most of the adults in the books because they weren't part of the story and that is the sort of thing Harry probably wouldn't know about them anyway, and probably totally wouldn't care about until he got older. So that didn't bother me, and like Harry I just didn't think of their love lives at all until they entered the storyline. As for all the fans out there assuming that everyone is gay, I just chalked that up to the folks who really like their slash and see HoYay everywhere they look.

And I can see how assumptions about Dumbledore can be annoying, but in his case I do see evidence of it in the last book. I honestly didn't see it before, but I had only read the book once and I was tearing through it to see how it all ended. But after Rowling made her announcement, I went back and read that chapter and I do think it is there. Of course, I don't think that the people who were right about Dumbledore only because they assumed everyone who didn't talk about his/her love life was gay can take any credit for it. Some people say that they saw evidence of it in earlier books, but I never noticed it myself.

Question - wasn't Dumbledore's victory over Grindelwald in their duel (that sent him to prison) listed on the back of his chocolate frog card? If so, that must have totally sucked for Dumbledore. Imagine having a constant reminder of the way the love of your life betrayed you and you ended up having to kick his ass and send him to prison packaged with candy and collected by the children you teach.

[Deleted]

kostgard said:

And I can see how assumptions about Dumbledore can be annoying, but in his case I do see evidence of it in the last book. I honestly didn't see it before, but I had only read the book once and I was tearing through it to see how it all ended. But after Rowling made her announcement, I went back and read that chapter and I do think it is there. Of course, I don't think that the people who were right about Dumbledore only because they assumed everyone who didn't talk about his/her love life was gay can take any credit for it. Some people say that they saw evidence of it in earlier books, but I never noticed it myself.

Exactly! It's like the saying, a stopped clock is right twice a day.

I can definitely see now where the hints are when they talk about how close Dumbledore and Grindelwald were, BUT if JKR had confirmed that he was straight, I think those things could also fit in with that, and they just had a very close friendship. Because, that IS possible Even between two men, or a straight man and a straight woman, etc.

I had the same thought about the Chocolate Frogs too.

[kostgard]

I can definitely see now where the hints are when they talk about how close Dumbledore and Grindelwald were, BUT if JKR had confirmed that he was straight, I think those things could also fit in with that, and they just had a very close friendship. Because, that IS possible Even between two men, or a straight man and a straight woman, etc.

I agree that it could easily be interpreted that way. It could certainly read like at best Dumbledore had a Guy Crush on Grindelwald because he found him so charismatic and was facinated by his ideas, and that certainly isn't unheard of. How else do charismatic leaders get people to drink their Kool-Aid?

[incognito]

kostgard said:

I know what you mean, and it does get irritating. Every time a male celebrity brings his mother to an awards show instead of a girlfriend he's automatically gay.

Yes, exactly! It's like, just because you don't know anything about this guy's love life does not make him gay. I mean, I'm sure Rowling had this planned for Dumbledore all along, considering how intricate and in-depth her world is. So I'm not saying this is her "fault" or that she's some sort of revisionist stereotyper when it comes to gay people. But it just adds fuel to the fire of this sort of speculation and so I do feel a bit annoyed by the reveal.

So... was this an unrequited crush on Dumbledore's part? Or did he and Grindewald really get up to some schoolboy hijinks?

[susyhomewrecker]

incognito said:

susyhomewrecker said:

I understand what you mean, but I don't think that's the case here. Dumbledore probably had relationships with other men besides Grindelwald, but we didn't know about the majority of Harry's teachers' love lives anyway. Hagrid and Lupin had girlfriends/wives and Snape loved Lily, but the only reason we know about that at all is because in some way, they helped progress the story. Dumbledore's sexuality is just one facet of a very complex character--a facet that wasn't integral to Harry's story.

I think I phrased my earlier post badly. When I mentioned people who had never been in a relationship, I meant when the author doesn't mention it at all. So they are never depicted as being with someone, and by default since it all happens in a fictional universe and these characters don't exist outside of the books, they have never been in a relationship. Maybe this goes back to my belief of what constitutes canon, so if you don't believe in that, then the rest of my argument is a moot point.

But let's say that Dumbledore really does exist in some magical parallel world, and that he did have relationships that were never mentioned in the book. Even so, it bugs me when people automatically jump to the conclusion of, "Oh, she never talks about his relationships. He must be getting some hot same-sex loving!" It's an attitude/conclusion/assumption that I see a lot, and it bothers me.

Yep, we might not see eye-to-eye on what constitutes canon, but I agree 100% with your second paragraph. Crazy HP fans will ship and slash whomever they want, even when those characters marry and have children with women. Sirius "didn't notice" all the girls who were watching him in the pensieve? GAY. Snape is 35 and isn't married? GAY. I read the ONTD thread that "outed" Dumbledore, and all these posters were coming out of the woodwork saying there's hope that she'll give us the truth about Sirius and Lupin after all. Because Tonks was just a girl that Lupin accidentally knocked up while he was grieving for his dead boyfriend. Riiiiiight.

[kostgard]

So... was this an unrequited crush on Dumbledore's part? Or did he and Grindewald really get up to some schoolboy hijinks?

Man, I'm livin' in this thread today, but onto the actual question - I wondered about that too. When I went back and read the chapter I wondered if Dumbledore had a crush on Grindelwald and Grindelwald never knew it. But then when DD and Harry are talking about how Grindelwald tried to deceive Voldy about the Elder Wand when he came looking for it, DD suggests that maybe that he was trying to undo some of the bad that he'd done, then Harry suggested that it may have been Grindelwald trying to protect DD (or at least honoring his memory) and trying to keep Voldy from digging up and basically violating DD's grave.

So I think there is a possibility that the feeling was mutual. Harry could be totally wrong in his guess, but I think Rowling put it in there for a reason. I think she put it in there to suggest that Grindelwald cared for DD too. But it is still ambiguous enough that Grindelwald's affections for DD could have been romantic or non-romantic - I certainly wouldn't want to see the graves of any of my non-romantic connections violated. But I think that at the very least she indicated that after all those years and everything that had happened Grindelwald did still feel some sort of affection for Dumbledore.

I read the ONTD thread that "outed" Dumbledore, and all these posters were coming out of the woodwork saying there's hope that she'll give us the truth about Sirius and Lupin after all. Because Tonks was just a girl that Lupin accidentally knocked up while he was grieving for his dead boyfriend. Riiiiiight.

That really is reaching a bit. How do they explain away Lupin's relationship with Tonks AND all the chicks in bikinis on Sirius' bedroom walls?

[Deleted]

Well, OBVIOUSLY, he had something to prove.

[susyhomewrecker]

AND he was trying to make his muggle-hating parents mad.

ETA: I'll have to go back and re-read the books (as if I needed an excuse, let's be real here) but I think Dumbledore and Grindelwald probably did have a relationship of some sort. When Harry and DD have that talk at "King's Cross," doesn't Dumbledore start crying after Harry says that Grindelwald was trying to protect him or whatever? Like, "after all those years, he still cares about me!"

Looking back on it, Dumbledore may have had a relationship with Elphias Doge, who the hell knows? It adds another layer to the Albus/Aberforth relationship, though--as in, perhaps Aberforth knew about Albus's orientation and wasn't pleased, but finally learned to deal with it in his own way.

[Deleted]

She asked Rowling why she didn't reveal this about Dumbledore in the books. Rowling first said that a lot of it had to do with the big ending (Dumbledore's connection to Grindelwald and the darkness from his youth) and she didn't want to tell that part until the end of the story. So reporter girl sasses back, "Oh, so for you the end of the story is at a press conference?" At that point it seemed Rowling was getting a bit miffed, but she did answer that it was in the book (and if you read that chapter, it really is), though not explicitly stated. She said that a child would probably just see a friendship there, while a sensitive adult would probably pick up that there was an infatuation there.

That really was out of line. I wish you guys could have been there when she announced it. It was not a press conference, it was not this big announcement. She very nonchalantly answered a kid's question. She probably did not realize that it would be this big of deal.

I am still irritated by all the parents that are shocked and horrified by there being a gay character in Harry Potter. Oh, they are OK with their kids reading about death and torture and war, but homosexuality? The horror! Its a sad commentary.