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Post by incognito on Jun 27, 2011 17:39:36 GMT -4
Thought that some people find this to be an interesting read. It's a dialogue between two people - a professor and a person who writes students' papers for pay - on plagiarism. I find it interesting that the professor said that the correct use of a semicolon is a red flag. What? I hope she means only in the cases where the student obviously has a tenuous grasp on grammar in the first place. This also makes me wonder how far I should go in helping my mother with her college essays. (She's in her fifties and finally going for her BA. Go, Mom!) My mom is ESL, and it definitely shows. Unfortunately, she has to pass a writing class in order to graduate. I also don't think she knows what plagiarism is. Once she asked me to rewrite a paper for her. Of course, I refused. However, I have been proofreading her papers. And I'm wondering where the line is. It's one thing to proofread someone's papers for the occasional typo or grammatical error, but if I'm correcting/rewording literally every sentence in my mom's paper, then is that somehow wrong? I don't mess with the essay structure or her arguments - both of which tend to be kinda weak - but I make sure that her sentences are at least grammatically sound. But the point of the class is to assess her writing skills.
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Post by chonies on Jun 27, 2011 18:17:52 GMT -4
I find it interesting that the professor said that the correct use of a semicolon is a red flag. What? I hope she means only in the cases where the student obviously has a tenuous grasp on grammar in the first place. This is definitely a case-by-case thing, but it's been my experience that very precise grammar is a huge red flag. I've only been wrong (or couldn't prove it!</cynical>) once. Spelling and word choice is not always a tell, but semi colons, regular colons and em-dashes are giant klaxons when grading BA-level writing. It's not that the students are too stupid to write like that, but generally that level or depth of writing is not what they have been reading, and they have nothing to model it after and they haven't really absorbed it in context, or outside a grammar book. Complicated grammar and its associated punctuation marks more often show up in deeper scholarly writing. So yeah, totally a red flag.  Congrats on your mom going to college! I love working with nontraditional students. I would say reworking the words and the structure of the sentences more than once moves the writing into dubious territory. You might want to put a limit on how many times you offer your services: maybe typo proofing twice and rewording-services once, or some other combination. And if it's an assessment class, it might be best to not help more than a minimal once-over so she can develop her own skills. I know it's tempting to not let that happen, though the school might have a lot of writing center or other student-support services available to help her with that. |
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Post by incognito on Jun 27, 2011 19:50:20 GMT -4
Thanks for your perspective, chonies. I actually usually only review her stuff once, as I don't have the patience to look it over more than that! It sounds horrible, but I find editing to be a tedious job as it is, and that's when I'm proofreading papers for people who speak English as a first language. The last time with my mom, I spent all night reviewing her stuff and finally went to bed at 7 in the morning. So... yeah. It's a one-time thing! Mom usually has other people who check over the paper too. She might pay a writing tutor, or go to the writing center, or ask my brother. (I've told her to not do the last one unless she absolutely has to, and that simply speaking English as your first language means squat when it comes to knowing how to write. ) ETA: Also, when you talk about grammar being a red flag, does that hold true for upper-level English major classes? I remember using soooo many semi-colons and em-dashes in my own writing, although I was less fond of regular colons, hehe. None of my teachers ever said anything. I majored in English and linguistics, but I suppose simply majoring in English doesn't mean anything when you consider that Stephenie Meyer majored in English, too. |
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Post by chonies on Jul 1, 2011 19:58:25 GMT -4
Also, when you talk about grammar being a red flag, does that hold true for upper-level English major classes? I remember using soooo many semi-colons and em-dashes in my own writing, although I was less fond of regular colons, hehe. None of my teachers ever said anything. I majored in English and linguistics, but I suppose simply majoring in English doesn't mean anything when you consider that Stephenie Meyer majored in English, too. I think once you get past the 1000 and 2000 level courses, it's a different game and third or fourth year English student would probably be competent (and daring!  ) enough to find a way to spice up writing by larding it with interesting words or edgier punctuation, both correctly used. Where precise grammar is really a tell, for me, is in the lower level courses where the grading rubric is basically "did it get turned in on time?" and "did they bother to use spell check?" Well, among other things. Another thing about cut and paste plagiarism is that the tone of the writing markedly changes halfway through a paragraph, and with that comes the change in grammar, word choice, 'voice,' etc. Even with a paper that was purchased, if a student turned in something written earlier in the semester, like an exam or a bulletin board post, email, etc., a paper in a different voice will stand out. Maybe not at a "Well, Xenu sure has improved in writing over the semester!" level, but after plowing through two or three dozen 2000-level papers, a really good paper will stand out enough to disrupt the waters. Example: Excessive em-dashes in a paper by a student who had only recently learned English, and had previously used tactics like enlarging the font. It was cut and pasted from an Amazon review. Another student had em-dashes in the middle of a research paper; the tone and content had also abruptly changed (copied from a blog). Also, the sudden emergence of nuance in a student who had previously exhibited only basic writing skills (another Amazon review). And hostile writing and reluctant argumentation suddenly replaced by an upbeat, positive tone (I suspected he turned in his girlfriend's paper but I couldn't prove it--luckily she had copied something from the internet, so it became a zero anyway). Topic? Where is Margaret B. Jones these days? |
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Dec 1, 2024 5:44:52 GMT -4
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Post by Deleted on Jul 1, 2011 20:07:45 GMT -4
And I'm wondering where the line is. It's one thing to proofread someone's papers for the occasional typo or grammatical error, but if I'm correcting/rewording literally every sentence in my mom's paper, then is that somehow wrong? I don't mess with the essay structure or her arguments - both of which tend to be kinda weak - but I make sure that her sentences are at least grammatically sound. But the point of the class is to assess her writing skills. At my college, that would definitely get your mother dismissed from the class with an F and possibly tossed out of the school for academic dishonesty. It's okay to red-underline her papers to point out where there are mistakes for her to correct. It's a whole other thing to essentially re-write what she's written. She's being assessed on her writing but the instructor is not being given a chance to see her writing, only yours. Does her school have a writing center, they'll probably be able to help her without crossing that ethical line. |
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Post by incognito on Jul 1, 2011 21:30:02 GMT -4
It's not really my writing, though - I think! I'm really careful to not make her writing more sophisticated* or to completely overhaul the sentence to the point where it doesn't resemble what she wrote. It's just that there are grammatical errors in practically every single sentence she writes, so I have to fix each grammatical error. Like in one sentence she wrote, "I will rhetorical analysis a paper," and I had to change that to "I will give a rhetorical analysis..." IDK, IDK.  There is a writing center, but I don't think she likes going there because they're not geared towards ESL students. The teacher did look over her paper briefly and told her that she should get some help with grammar...it's just that the help needed is incredibly extensive. * Although, looking over the paper I helped her with last week, I realize that at one point I inserted the word "aesthetic", which is a word that Mom would definitely not know. DAMMIT. I really need to be more careful. chonies, is that the same person as Margaret Seltzer? That brings back memories. One of my favorite cases of plagiarism ever. It was so ridiculous. I like how she talked about getting a tattoo in honor of a gang friend who was being executed. Stay classy, Seltzer. |
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Post by Smilla on Jul 4, 2011 20:31:57 GMT -4
Ms. Seltzer's Wikipedia page[/color] claims only that she currenly lives in Eugene, Oregon. No more books, thankfully. |
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Post by Peggy Lane on Jul 21, 2011 13:08:52 GMT -4
A newer book by PD James, Private Patient, actually touched on plagiarism in writing. A college-aged writer wrote a novel and a few pages were directly lifted from a little known book from the 1930s. The rest of the book was original, but it caused a huge scandal and the girl killed herself.
PD James wrote the girl's story very sympathatically. It's such a hard thing. I wrote something recently and was quite pleased with a turn of phrase. When I reread it I realized it didn't quite sound like me, so I Googled it. Turns out it was from a book I read about ten years ago. At what point does pastiche evolve into plagiarism?
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Post by Ladybug on Oct 17, 2011 9:39:34 GMT -4
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Door
Blueblood
Don't torture yourself, Gomez. That's my job.
Posts: 1,097
Mar 6, 2005 18:59:31 GMT -4
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Post by Door on Oct 17, 2011 9:45:26 GMT -4
Wow.
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) enough to find a way to spice up writing by larding it with interesting words or edgier punctuation, both correctly used. Where precise grammar is really a tell, for me, is in the lower level courses where the grading rubric is basically "did it get turned in on time?" and "did they bother to use spell check?" Well, among other things. Another thing about cut and paste plagiarism is that the tone of the writing markedly changes halfway through a paragraph, and with that comes the change in grammar, word choice, 'voice,' etc. Even with a paper that was purchased, if a student turned in something written earlier in the semester, like an exam or a bulletin board post, email, etc., a paper in a different voice will stand out. Maybe not at a "Well, Xenu sure has improved in writing over the semester!" level, but after plowing through two or three dozen 2000-level papers, a really good paper will stand out enough to disrupt the waters.
There is a writing center, but I don't think she likes going there because they're not geared towards ESL students. The teacher did look over her paper briefly and told her that she should get some help with grammar...it's just that the help needed is incredibly extensive. 
