Dave Chappelle

[Ridha]

And how does one reconcile the above yardstick (if we accept it as one), with the fact that often people OF the said communities can disagree with what they find offensive and don’t?

Daphne a Trans woman for instance did not find Dave Chappelle offensive (nor, cubanitafresca did she think he punched down, and wrote a tweet detailing why).

Caitlyn Jenner for instance considers that trans women competing with bio women in sport, is cheating. That is at odds with others in the trans community.

Some of African descent feel that Meghan Markle was the victim of racism by BRF and media, others feel she was not and that she shamelessly played the race card.

Some women feel that Amber Heard was a victim of domestic violence, others believe the opposite.

So even if it was a fair yardstick to judge by (and I don’t think it is, I prefer to judge topics by their issues, not by the people agreeing or disagreeing), it’s not a logical or workable one. If we’re going to blindly decide our stance on a topic by looking around to see who’s standing at which line, then what do you do when the community in general themselves do not agree? Will you go with Caitlyn Jenner? Or the trans cyclist/swimmer? They’re both part of the oppressed category you want to side with above. Do you see why its not just more intellectually honest to judge by the issues but also why to do anything else just isn’t sustainable?

[Mutagen]

May 11, 2022 11:41:59 GMT -4 ahah said:

May 11, 2022 11:34:08 GMT -4 Mutagen said:

Free speech means you get to make the jokes, and free speech also means other people get to tell you when they think your jokes suck. I've acknowledged and will never deny there are some truly stupid moral outrage shitstorms that happen on the internet. But I also find some of the criticism of "offended millenials" to be projection sometimes, because nobody seems more thin-skinned than a comedian being told they aren't as funny or truthful as they think they are.

Yes, people absolutely can and should say so when they think the jokes suck. But declaring that others cannot / should not hear the jokes because some have decided they suck is another thing entirely. When people lobby Netflix to drop Chapelle, that's what they're doing. Expressing dislike or disagreement with speech does not expand into preventing others from hearing said speech and judging it for themselves.

Lobbying businesses has long been a tool of protest, though. I don't see how protesting a streaming company is morally any different from sit-ins at segregated businesses or boycotts of Chick-Fil-A.

[cremetangerine82]

May 11, 2022 11:42:00 GMT -4 Gigiree said:

No one has the right to tell marginalized groups what they do and do not find offensive. When an individual who is trans says that Dave Chappelle's show was transphobic, I believe them. The same as I do when an African American person says that something is racist. As a thinking individual, I understand that my perception is not the same as others because of my history and privilege. In situations where there is a disconnect, I always side with the oppressed.

To quote Eli Wiesel, a man who understood this topic better than many, "We must always take sides. Neutrality helps the oppressor, never the victim. Silence encourages the tormentor, never the tormented. Sometimes we must interfere." When one attempts to silence the oppressed, one becomes an oppressor.

Beautiful point, gigiree. I know it’s cliché to say “if I had a dollar for every time I was told that racism/sexism/misogyny/homophobia/transphobia, etc. didn’t exist…”, I would be the worlds first trillionaire and definitely wouldn’t buy Twitter with it!

Mutagen, great posts. The fact that there’s so many people do not know that you can be both black and part of the LGBTQ+ communities (*coughDavecough*) is incredibly frustrating, since that would invalidate my existence completely or the existence of black LGBTQ+ people (so much for the “GLBTQ+ can be racist and weaponize their whiteness” point).

Ridha, Caitlyn Jenner is not supportive of trans women except one: herself. The fact that she is now joining Fox News and is willing to spout deeply divisive rhetoric about trans people (I don’t know who the “trans bicyclist/swimmer” is) just speaks to her wanting to use transphobia for profit.

I dislike others using Daphne Dorman (R.I.P.) in order to claim that someone who was admittedly a huge fan of Dave Chappelle (biased towards liking him) is probably gonna be more likely to laugh at jokes said by him, and we are once again speaking for a woman who can no longer speak for herself while David used her as a prop to deflect criticism.

Again, you will find somebody who can laugh at offensive jokes about themselves probably to keep from crying, but that still doesn’t mean the jokes are incredibly hurtful and have done damage to marginalized people. You can find somebody who will deny that someone can be a victim and an opportunist, just one or the other. Human beings are complicated and not one dimensional cardboard cut-outs.

[Gigiree]

One can always find those with enough self-hatred to side with their own oppressors.

[ahah]

May 11, 2022 12:17:49 GMT -4 Mutagen said:

May 11, 2022 11:41:59 GMT -4 ahah said:

Yes, people absolutely can and should say so when they think the jokes suck. But declaring that others cannot / should not hear the jokes because some have decided they suck is another thing entirely. When people lobby Netflix to drop Chapelle, that's what they're doing. Expressing dislike or disagreement with speech does not expand into preventing others from hearing said speech and judging it for themselves.

Lobbying businesses has long been a tool of protest, though. I don't see how protesting a streaming company is morally any different from sit-ins at segregated businesses or boycotts of Chick-Fil-A.

To me, it is the difference between choosing not to be a customer of a business you object to vs keeping others from being exposed to speech you object to. Netflix is being lobbied, not Dave Chapelle - and the push is to remove him from the platform blocking access of his work to others.

[petitesuite]

Caitlyn Jenner is a self absorbed idiot and I see no reason to value her opinion on anything. Of course in any community people will disagree, no group is a monolith. But there are plenty of instances—I am pretty sure Chappelle’s comments are one of them—where the overwhelming majority of people who are both affected and able to present cogently reasoned points agree.

[ahah]

May 11, 2022 14:15:50 GMT -4 petitesuite said:

Caitlyn Jenner is a self absorbed idiot and I see no reason to value her opinion on anything. Of course in any community people will disagree, no group is a monolith. But there are plenty of instances—I am pretty sure Chappelle’s comments are one of them—where the overwhelming majority of people who are both affected and able to present cogently reasoned points agree.

The recognition to no group being a monolith takes us back to the question of who determines the yardstick, no?

[cremetangerine82]

May 11, 2022 13:44:43 GMT -4 ahah said:

May 11, 2022 12:17:49 GMT -4 Mutagen said:

Lobbying businesses has long been a tool of protest, though. I don't see how protesting a streaming company is morally any different from sit-ins at segregated businesses or boycotts of Chick-Fil-A.

To me, it is the difference between choosing not to be a customer of a business you object to vs keeping others from being exposed to speech you object to. Netflix is being lobbied, not Dave Chapelle - and the push is to remove him from the platform blocking access of his work to others.

How is Dave Chappelle being deplatformed from Netflix when he will be hosting four other Netflix specials?
The Hollywood Bowl show was never going to be scheduled to air on Netflix.

Also, the fact that he sold out a show in London shortly after he did The Closer and made his own self-centered demands (including an unnecessarily nasty slam towards Hannah Gadsby, one of the few queer comedians to have specials on Netflix) that made himself look like the victim.

The trans, non-binary, and trans allies who staged the Netflix walkout made requests, not demands. Of course, the mainstream media unilaterally use the word “demands” in order to make them seem like they were being unreasonable, thin-skinned, and trying to silence Chappelle. Here’s the requests:

When it comes to content, the group wants Netflix to increase its funding of trans and non-binary talent, bring employee resource groups into conversations about potentially harmful content, hire more trans and non-binary content executives and revise internal procedures around commissioning and releasing sensitive works. In terms of employee relations and safety, they want Netflix to recruit trans people, especially BIPOC, for leadership roles, allow employees to remove themselves from previous promotional content like allyship and diversity videos, and eliminate references and imagery of transphobic titles and talent in the workplace. For harm reduction, they want Netflix to acknowledge the company’s harm in platforming transphobic content, add a disclaimer before transphobic titles, boost promotion for trans-affirming titles on the platform and suggest trans-affirming content alongside those flagged as anti-trans.

What they didn’t request?

The demands do not include removing the controversial Dave Chappelle special from Netflix, which sparked backlash from some employees and Netflix subscribers concerned with the company’s platforming of transphobic speech.

I don’t know if it’s indicative celebrity culture that people feel more sympathetic towards a multi-millionaire who has already made very bigoted and pernicious comments about marginalized groups than the marginalized groups he’s using as a joke fodder for profit. Yes, the trans communities are not a monolith, therefore I’ve consistently referred to them in the plural not singular sense.

Who controls the yardstick? I don’t know, but I’m not siding with Chappelle nor Caitlyn Jenner.

[cubanitafresca]

May 11, 2022 12:00:22 GMT -4 Ridha said:

Daphne a Trans woman for instance did not find Dave Chappelle offensive (nor, cubanitafresca did she think he punched down, and wrote a tweet detailing why).

May 11, 2022 14:38:09 GMT -4 ahah said:

The recognition to no group being a monolith takes us back to the question of who determines the yardstick, no?

There are always going to be outliers in every situation. There are people of color who support Trump and don't believe he is racist despite all the evidence to the contrary. There are also people who think the earth is flat too.

So when it comes to whether we believe that someone's words (or comedy) are hurtful and damaging to a specific group the yardstick is what the majority of people within that group are telling you. And in this case, the majority are telling everyone that it's a problem. Believe them. period.

One other aspect I haven't seen mentioned in this conversation or anywhere - Daphne Dorman wasn't some big-time comedian. Her biggest gig was opening for Chappelle one time, and she's got one credit on IMBD, some movie I doubt anyone ever heard of. The power dynamic in that relationship was all one way - especially for someone trying to break into the big time. The backlash she got for supporting him was nothing compared to the backlash she would have gotten had she called him out for his comments and likely would have cost her any chance at a career in comedy.

[cremetangerine82]

May 13, 2022 12:26:42 GMT -4 cubanitafresca said:

One other aspect I haven't seen mentioned in this conversation or anywhere - Daphne Dorman wasn't some big-time comedian. Her biggest gig was opening for Chappelle one time, and she's got one credit on IMBD, some movie I doubt anyone ever heard of. The power dynamic in that relationship was all one way - especially for someone trying to break into the big time. The backlash she got for supporting him was nothing compared to the backlash she would have gotten had she called him out for his comments and likely would have cost her any chance at a career in comedy.

CW: suicide, transphobia, expletives, child custody battle, mental issues, trauma, unemployment, censorship

I have repeatedly mentioned her name in five separate posts (this one included) and mourn her death, because I really don’t think Dave Chapelle‘s completely exaggerated narrative is really doing justice to her memory if he truly was a friend.

From her roommate and close friend, Daphne suffered from PTSD from past trauma, suicidal thoughts, an acrimonious divorce, a child custody battle in which she lost custody of her daughter, being unemployed, and was getting harassed for being a trans women in San Francisco! If she was being hassled in a city that is famous for its LGBTQ+ friendliness, that probably hurt more than a social media backlash that happened long before she ended her life. The causes of suicide are incredibly complex, and having Dave Chapelle associate it to a rabid Twitter mob is incredibly reduction.

If you want to hear her comedy, I found a stand-up set of hers that is available on YouTube. Once again, R.I.P., Daphne Dorman (April 30, 1975-October 11, 2019).

Dave Chappelle doesn’t have to be silenced, but maybe he should think before he speaks again.