Joss Whedon

[laconicchick]

Jewel Staite (who Whedon asked NOT to slim down for Firefly)

She was actually asked to gain 20 pounds (though personally, I cannot tell by looking. Kaylee was apparently described as "chubby" in the casting call or character description or whatever, and I really don't think she appeared that way in the show -- though I guess you could call her "TV chubby." But I love little Kaylee anyway).

Joss... I don't know, he does come off a bit as thinking of himself as somewhat of a misunderstood genius, but he at least had good shows and interesting ideas and characters. I loved Buffy (not the later years), never watched Angel, and am currently obsessed with Firefly. Really, it's all about the characters for me. I don't know how he does it, but he creates characters that people just LOVE, I think.

I do have the thinkgeek/PVP Online shirt that says "Joss Whedon is My Master Now," but that's beside the point.

I don't think he's necessarily all HE thinks he's cracked up to be (the commentary for the Firefly episode "Objects in Space" is PAINFUL in its pretentiousness), but he gives credit to others where it's due, he appreciates his fans, and he does his job well.

And with regard to Firefly's concept: I didn't watch it when it was on (but who did?) because I heard "space western" and tuned out, but I was won over this summer after seeing the Pilot (and the pilot... *sniff*). It rocks and I love it, and I can't really explain why except that for some reason it's exactly the kind of thing that I love. (And I don't watch anything else set in space.)

[slanderous]

MostlyHarmless, I think that if I were to answer all your questions it would be a rehash of the former TWOP BtVS bitterness thread! And I don't think we want to go there in this forum.

I'm glad you continued to enjoy his work throughout the run of his shows, but I found it increasingly frustrating, senseless, and gratuitous.

[Deleted]

I just remember reading an interesting, rather even-handed and complimentary online essay about Serenity that nevertheless pointed out how it wasn't guaranteed success and there were plenty of potential faults and things working against it... only for Joss Whedon, on another forum, to call it as a 'hatebomb' when it was clearly no such thing. Without having seen Serenity, that lost him much of my respect. Real mature way to handle constructive criticism, friend.

I dunno. I just get the feeling that he's bought a bit too much into his own press and the ravings of the more extreme of his fans. He's got talent, but he ain't no genius, and his work has plenty of problems and faults.

[laconicchick]

DoctorNemesis, when I read your last comment I was thinking, "Well, what work DOESN'T have plenty of problems and faults?" and then I was trying to think of something that is as close to perfect as possible, and I thought of The Big Lebowski, which I watched for like the 11th time on Friday -- I was doing something else at the same time so I wasn't paying total attention, but every time I looked it up was perfect -- hilarious, beautifully shot, and brilliant.

And then I saw your sig line. Hee!

But anyway, with regard to Whedon, I agree with you. I think this:

I dunno. I just get the feeling that he's bought a bit too much into his own press and the ravings of the more extreme of his fans. He's got talent, but he ain't no genius, and his work has plenty of problems and faults.

sums it up perfectly, though I do think he has a bit of genius. Not a lot, but a bit. And I don't know if I'd say "plenty" of faults -- maybe "a few." But that's just opinion.

He reminds me a bit of Scott Kurtz, the creator of PVP Online (webcomic) -- totally unable to take criticism and have a sense of humour about himself (actually, Whedon probably has a sense of humour about himself, but he is NOT able to take criticism well, I don't think), and extremely wanky as a result.

[mostlyharmless]

Interesting thing DoctorNemisis, the review you're talking about is here [/color] but before the end it says:

[Note: In an unprecedented move, I have rethought some aspects of my review. The following two paragraphs are new.]

The post that Whedon made about this says:

So I was flouncing (that's lurking but fancier) about WHEDONESQUE (for which I have forgotten my password yet again) and I couldn't help but see the little CHUD.com hate-bomb that Devin wrote. I don't mind that he doesn't love the film, but things like "It failed in a big way" and "It's over" are about as charming -- and journalistic -- as "I was right." I am being totally realistic when I say the weekend grosses did not meet expectations -- but those expectations were based on models that don't apply to this situation because, seriously, nothing does. The industry is not calling this a failure, just a slightly soft version of a normal opening in a generally weak weekend.

Now I did meet Devin, and he's not a dumb guy. But he seems to have a real animus against you Browncoats, and that's the thing I wanted to comment on, 'cause that doesn't sit well with me. He actually blames you guys for making sci-fi fans stay away from the movie. Says you should be ashamed for having adopted a name, that you will start finger-pointing and bickering now that you've 'caused' the 'failure' of your film. He blames other things as well -- the title, the ads -- but that's fine. If one --ONE -- of you guys reads that column and takes it to heart I'll not sleep. You guys did an amazing thing this weekend -- and the exit polls showed how much you guys were out there, and how much business you dragged in with you. Not to mention everything you did for the months - sorry, YEARS -- before it opened. I'm crazy proud of you. Yes, there is an exclusionary element to some fandom that is inevitable, but this group has fought that as well or better as any, and maybe I'm a nerd, but being compared to a Trekker (or even a TrekkIE) doesn't offend me a bit.

(source: www.fireflyguidebook.com/univ-posts-joss/univ-posts-joss.html)
Now, no where in the review is there any reference to the movie failing and blaming the rabid fans, even though these comments are discussed, and quoted, on other boards.

Maybe "Hatebomb" is a strong word, though without seeing the original version of the article it's hard to judge. But it's clear that there were comments made critical of the fans and it's THIS that Whedon is pissed about, not any critisisim of the movie or himself.
The fact that the reviewer removed the comments is either proof they were not justified (if you're a Whedon fan) or he took them off because the hordes of crazy obsessed fans threatened to burn his house down (if you're not a fan)

Many people have said worse things about Whedon, Buffy, Serenity, whatever. But what he chooses to go public about is someone dissing his fans. Again, fans will take this as Whedons true wonderfulness, haters will say it's a cynical act. Take your pick.


And Slanderous, I did enjoy his shows though I, like many, didn't like most of the last season. It started great but then bogged down for weeks and weeks with nothing much happening and it wasn't until the last few episodes that it picked up again.

[slanderous]

Hopefully we can at least all agree that the fake grocery list buzz was pretty funny.

I'm also happy to admit that about 25% of my dislike-loathing has to do with the "reflected glory" of his more extreme "Whedon is God" fans.

[hamhock]

I gotta say I love, LOVE Buffy.....the early seasons....and I'm so sorry, but it really looks like Joss was interested for a while......and then he wasn't. It feels like that to me. There are episodes that make me cry like a weinie. I tried to give him the benefit of the doubt for seasons 4.5 through 7, "he knows what he's doing, he's written great stuff so far".
Well, that didn't work out so well and I watched commentaries and read his interviews. He makes my bile ducts twitch. I get that "I'm a misunderstood genius" vibe from him as well.
I liked a lot of Angel, too, and I watched the first 2 or 3 episodes of Firefly, then I skipped a couple, then I watched one more. And then I was done.

[Deleted]

Thanks for posting that link, MostlyHarmless - I was trying to remember what the article was and, more importantly, whether I'd actually got the right end of the stick about it. Very interesting perspective on it - and obviously, as you say, a fair assessment can't be made without seeing the original article and what was actually said about the fans. But yeah, I've just kind of got this vibe that he's taken the adoration of the more extreme fanbase a bit too close to heart in ways that he probably shouldn't have.

Of course, I should probably confess that I've never been that big a fan of Buffy or Angel in any case, so I'm more in a position to see even potentially minor faults and personality flaws as being bigger than they are (hence my 'no genius' and 'many faults' position), and like slanderous, I probably judge Whedon slightly harshly because I find the plaudits his 'genius' receives a bit irritating as a result of this. But still, I don't begrudge anyone enjoying his work, and I'll maintain to my dying day that 'Hush' and 'The Body' are two of the best pieces of television ever made, so no harm, no foul.

Oh, and laconicgirl - The Big Lebowski is probably the most perfect movie ever made. And the fact that you commented on my sig has just made my entire week.

[Deleted]

I'm also happy to admit that about 25% of my dislike-loathing has to do with the "reflected glory" of his more extreme "Whedon is God" fans.

ITA with the above. Every year since the cancellation of Angel which hasn't been long I know, there is the group of Whedon asskissers who whine and cry about how there is no new Joss produced show on TV, or how Spike needs his own show/movie/ Lifetime special about kitten poker addiction and what not. Maybe this is more of a fandom rant but it annoys the Hell outta me that the whole 'Where is a Joss Whedon show?We want a Joss show!' thing that erupts on various internet sites, and I know that six months after the show starts these will be the same people who will cry and moan about how it sucks and Joss has ruined their lives with the show not meeting their expectations.

[Laira]

Some of the biggest critics of Whedon and Serenity here have talked for ages about "A movie based on a failed TV show and without any big name stars" and yet they then completly discount this as a possible reason for the poor box office.

Really? I always thought it was pretty obvious those were the reasons Serenity tanked.