Deleted
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Jun 1, 2024 20:06:39 GMT -4
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Post by Deleted on Sept 8, 2014 21:08:32 GMT -4
I agree about the vengeance part. I sometimes feel that some of the facts get lost as time moves on.
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Post by chonies on Sept 8, 2014 21:18:09 GMT -4
I agree. I think, about 25 years after the fact, it seems like Joan made a poor decision, and Johnny reacted very badly. I haven't read anything about why Joan and/or her team kept it under wraps and didn't tell Johnny, so I might be misreading the situation. It's possible she thought she was acting out of ambition, which isn't a terrible thing, but it seems strangely cold from both of them, so maybe things were strained anyway. FWIW, my source on the guest annihilation was the "Late Night TV: No Girls Allowed?" episode from the Stuff Mom Never Told You podcast. Link.
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iClaudia
Sloane Ranger
"When love and duty are one, grace is within you."
Posts: 2,215
Mar 13, 2005 14:33:41 GMT -4
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Post by iClaudia on Sept 8, 2014 21:28:44 GMT -4
I first heard the story on the Howard Stern Show and while Howard was on Joan's side, derisively talking about needing Johnny's permission (paraphrased, of course), I always understood Johnny's side. It was definitely a huge mistake on Joan's part, and she paid for it dearly. So, I agree that Johnny should have let it go, at least after her show failed. I'm not sure I even blame him for being cutthroat about the guests thing. I can understand being that angry in the beginning but it definitely wasn't worth holding a grudge over, given how things played out.
I do wonder how the post-Carson retirement "Late Night Wars" would have played out if Joan hadn't have gone off the reservation.
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Deleted
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Jun 1, 2024 20:06:39 GMT -4
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Post by Deleted on Sept 8, 2014 22:12:41 GMT -4
What gets me though is he managed to get her basically banned from NBC for decades. She wasn't on the Tonight Show again until Fallon took over, Leno wouldn't have her on.
And not a single word of condolence when Edgar died. That's just cold.
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Deleted
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Jun 1, 2024 20:06:39 GMT -4
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Post by Deleted on Sept 9, 2014 0:16:58 GMT -4
Maybe Joan had had enough with sexism, glass ceilings, and having to make nice with someone who had power. It just seemed like a bad, not-very-nice decision, but she sure as shit paid for it. I doubt if a male comedian had done the same thing, he would have paid as dearly as Joan.
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Post by Ninja Bunny on Sept 9, 2014 0:37:49 GMT -4
From what I've heard, while Joan was the permanent stand-in, they had no real intention of passing the Tonight Show to her after Johnny left. That's why she went with her own show. In an interview, Joan said that when the deal was solidified, Johnny was the first person she called so she could personally tell him. She told him and he hung up on her. His assertion about about finding out about it in the news might have been horsecrap on his part.
Either way, Johnny was a vengeful little bitch. He wasn't her manager. Joan shouldn't need to ask him permission to make whatever professional decisions she thinks is right for her career and him undermining her like that was just a total dick move. I've always hated Leno for continuing Johnny's tantrum.
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Post by margojata on Sept 9, 2014 7:08:15 GMT -4
I find Leno to be the biggest asswipe in that whole story (and in many other ways as well!). It wasn't his fight to fight, and he still didn't allow Joan on the show long after Johnny was dead. He wasn't even a part of those old days and that culture.
Johnny was an insecure, petty man on a lot of levels. He also had an amazingly kind and generous side. Reminds me of Sinatra - quietly helped strangers just because he could, but was also an angry brute. I personally blame it on the culture of that generation and the power of men at that time in Hollywood. Oh so much macho, yet a band of totally f'ed up, insecure drunks who constantly fought a battle with their own egos.
Joan told the story skewing a bit too much in her favor. Johnny sent off lots of people to try to compete with him - he merely wanted to be told first, and he likely knew he'd beat the pants off all of them (and he did). But he felt betrayed by the secret deal and just could not forgive her. I've had people in my family stop talking for a lot less.
I think it's a sad tale that played/plays out with lots of people. I believe Joan even tried to get a message to him after his son died, but he never answered. But I remember watching him every night, and he was incredibly kind with comics - always playing the straight man, laughing it up, and letting people become stars sometimes solely on how he made them look at let them shine. People are never (well some are!) all good or all bad. He was the generation of my parents, and I saw plenty back stabby, macho shit in those days. I hope there's a heaven and they're having a ball ribbing each other about how dumb it all was.
So FP has to be cancelled, right? There's just no show without Joan as the leader. At least I hope so. Please don't stick bobblehead in the main chair, or even worse (well, or equally bad) - Melissa. Although I do feel for her because what does she do now for a career? She won't need the money, but she will have a tremendous void with no job to go to with mom.
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Post by Mutagen on Sept 9, 2014 7:37:34 GMT -4
For me, Johnny's side of things is always tainted by how horrible he was to his wives. Dude had major control issues.
Oooh man. Joan would have FEASTED on the Leno-Letterman fight.
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Post by divasahm on Sept 9, 2014 8:28:36 GMT -4
Not to speak ill of the dead, but IIRC, Edgar holds some of the blame for pissing Johnny off. I'm not sure Joan was in total control of her own career back then--when the whole thing tanked, and Edgar ended up killing himself, Joan made sure that nobody else ever had that kind of power over her life.
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Post by discoprincess on Sept 9, 2014 9:30:50 GMT -4
For me, Johnny's side of things is always tainted by how horrible he was to his wives. Dude had major control issues. Johnny was an insecure, petty man on a lot of levels. He also had an amazingly kind and generous side. Reminds me of Sinatra - quietly helped strangers just because he could, but was also an angry brute. I personally blame it on the culture of that generation and the power of men at that time in Hollywood. Oh so much macho, yet a band of totally f'ed up, insecure drunks who constantly fought a battle with their own egos. Johnny was also cold to his biracial grandchild. She reportedly received nothing from his estate. I read somewhere that the granddaughter once wrote him a letter and he never responded. He never had any contact with her. So, yeah, I have no problem believing that Johnny Carson could be a cold-hearted, mean, angry, vindictive @##%^&**! If he had her blacklisted from NBC, then screw him. As far as Jay Leno is concerned...well, he showed some of his true colors during that whole Conan O'Brien debacle; no honor there. Joan worked her back back to the top of the game at the end of her life, so Johnny Carson could suck it.
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