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Post by divasahm on Feb 11, 2011 8:51:43 GMT -4
And so many people who get into Scientology (and other belief systems) are so unhappy and desperate to find peace within themselves that they will abandon reason and believe anything that they're told (over and over--at a certain point the clams are brainwashing, I think). I'd be willing to bet that this was the scenario for many, many Sea Orgs.
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Post by kateln on Feb 11, 2011 16:16:08 GMT -4
Exactly. Priests take the confessions very very seriously, it's like the Catholic version of doctor-patient confidentiality or attorney-client priviledge. Seal of the Confessional is a big deal. It cannot be broken for any reason whatsoever or they'll be automatically excommunicated. None of this blackmailing crap the Clams do. I left the Catholic faith YEARS ago. Years. While I may joke that I'm concerned that someday soon a little band of nuns will come after me with wooden rulers and a Cruxifix, I don't actually THINK that's going to happen. (A Priest however did almost run me over in a cross-walk once, but he may have been Anglican.) I've never had the Seal of Confession broken, and on the few occasions that I know of where it was, the Priest had a HUGE price to pay. With Scientology, former members seem to have a very real, very legitamite fear that they're going to be hunted down and hurt or injured. Auditing sessions are used for blackmail. While yes, God and the creation story can seem a little "out there" to people outside of the faith. It makes more sense to me to believe in a benevolent God who guides us and created us, rather then an evil dark Lord (a la Voldemort) who banished aliens to Earth so that we can evolve from Clams.
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Post by Mutagen on Feb 11, 2011 16:32:58 GMT -4
I also think it's fair to look at other Creation stories as products of their times. When the Abrahamic, Hindu, Buddhist etc. origin stories were established, it was prior to our modern concepts of science, prior to what we know about gravity and biology and astronomy. Many adherents of these faiths (despite the existence of fundamentalists) will freely state that creation stories are not to be taken literally, that they contain a spiritual truth that supercedes their literal meaning.
There was a great moment in Bill Maher's Religulous movie where he interviewed a Vatican official (I think it was their astronomy expert). This official, who was a religious cleric, very flatly and reasonably rejected the idea of using the Bible as a science book, because that was not its purpose, and because it was written before the scientific age.
I think it's fair to judge L. Ron Hubbard's bullshit by modern standards because it was created and propagated in modern times. Because Scientology demands a level of literalism that modern mainstream branches of even the most ancient religions do not.
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Deleted
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Oct 3, 2024 21:36:03 GMT -4
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Post by Deleted on Feb 11, 2011 17:14:27 GMT -4
Mutagen said it perfectly. I was always taught that the Bible was a book of stories meant to be a moral guide, not something to be taken literally. In high school we studied the symbolism of various aspects, like how important certain numbers were. It was also emphasized that the Bible was written by human beings and therefore not infalible. It's very much a work of the times it was written in.
The Clams, on the other hand, expect their follows to swallow everything hook, line, and sinker and to pay for the priviledge. And the practice of preying on the weak and vulnerable is really what gets me. The worst that most Catholic priests I know will do is bore you to death with talking.
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Post by kateln on Feb 11, 2011 17:29:25 GMT -4
Oh yeah, in my Catholic high-school, and college I was a Science/Biology geek. In that I learned about Evolution, Chemistry, and Physics in school. And was taught, by a Catholic Priest--in Religion Class--that the Bible is guide. Not a Science book, not a History book, but the word of God as told by man. AND that it is written by the winners--hence why you get a pretty skewed version of the Phillistines.
Wow, that particular priest was a putz, but I still learned something from him.
As for the Clams--I just don't get the logic there. How do these people believe that DC-10's carried frozen aliens to Volcanos?
I mean, sure I'm asked to believe in some weird stuff as a Christian, but as far as I know--Jesus didn't have a kung fu grip.
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yournamehere
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Oct 3, 2024 21:36:03 GMT -4
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Post by yournamehere on Feb 11, 2011 18:02:41 GMT -4
The beliefs aren't really the issue. Whatever floats your boat and makes you happy. If worshiping a guy named Steve and painting your ass red fills your soul, then knock yourself out. The thing I don't get is first of all, it sounds like such bullshit. You're told one thing, then after you pay enough money, they tell you "Oh, that stuff we said before wasn't true. This stuff is true! We didn't tell you at first because you weren't ready for it!" But those people who don't go "Screw this, I'm out" after the lies start piling up - why can't they see that a lot of it simply isn't true? Yes, Scientology works in some ways, because it is basically a self-help method very similar to other self-help programs. And talking about your problems in general (like during an auditing session) helps too. As they say, confession is good for the soul. BUT Scientology promises that you will become super-human. Seriously, they tell you that you are no longer human, no longer a homo sapien - you are a new kind of creature who is superior to humans. Clearly, this isn't true. You don't actually get super powers. Why don't these people see that? Why can't they look at Tom Cruise, the ideal Scientologist, and see that he's a total joke and he can't actually control time and space the way an OT-whatever supposedly can. At least other religions keep things ephemeral and say you'll get amazing things in the afterlife or your next life. Some say that enlightenment is possible in this life, but it is very difficult to achieve. Scientology basically tells you that if you spend enough money, you can reach the highest level and gain super powers. It just reeks of bullshit and I can't believe that so many people fall for it. This entire post reminds me of Sheldon Cooper trying to make someone's head explode.
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badtzmaru
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Oct 3, 2024 21:36:03 GMT -4
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Post by badtzmaru on Feb 11, 2011 18:21:55 GMT -4
The beliefs aren't really the issue. Whatever floats your boat and makes you happy. If worshiping a guy named Steve and painting your ass red fills your soul, then knock yourself out. The thing I don't get is first of all, it sounds like such bullshit. You're told one thing, then after you pay enough money, they tell you "Oh, that stuff we said before wasn't true. This stuff is true! We didn't tell you at first because you weren't ready for it!" But those people who don't go "Screw this, I'm out" after the lies start piling up - why can't they see that a lot of it simply isn't true? Yes, Scientology works in some ways, because it is basically a self-help method very similar to other self-help programs. And talking about your problems in general (like during an auditing session) helps too. As they say, confession is good for the soul. BUT Scientology promises that you will become super-human. Seriously, they tell you that you are no longer human, no longer a homo sapien - you are a new kind of creature who is superior to humans. Clearly, this isn't true. You don't actually get super powers. Why don't these people see that? Why can't they look at Tom Cruise, the ideal Scientologist, and see that he's a total joke and he can't actually control time and space the way an OT-whatever supposedly can. At least other religions keep things ephemeral and say you'll get amazing things in the afterlife or your next life. Some say that enlightenment is possible in this life, but it is very difficult to achieve. Scientology basically tells you that if you spend enough money, you can reach the highest level and gain super powers. It just reeks of bullshit and I can't believe that so many people fall for it. This entire post reminds me of Sheldon Cooper trying to make someone's head explode. If Scientology could give me that power I'd actually think about joining. Not saying I'd do it but I'd give it some serious thought.
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Post by kostgard on Feb 11, 2011 18:48:44 GMT -4
Well, in all honesty, it comes pretty close to making my head explode, because I just don't get it. I know people get depressed and lonely and desperate for answers, but do they also have no bullshit detectors?
When I was a freshman in college, my roommate almost got sucked into a cult (a kinda Christian cult, not Scientology). I was only 18 and didn't know jack shit, but I smelled the crazy on them immediately. They left a message for her on our answering machine where they were totally love-bombing her, and I knew it before I even know what love-bombing was. I got worried and recruited the gal down the hall whose father was a minister to lend more credibility and talked to her. She admitted she thought the group was a bit strange, and she walked away. Another gal we hung out with got sucked in completely. Comparing the two, the other gal was more naive and, well, dumber than my roommate, but the clams suck in reasonably intelligent people.
I mean, Tom Cruise doesn't strike me as the sharpest tool in the shed, but he isn't a drooling moron either. Doesn't he look at his mess of a public image and wonder why he can't fix it with his powers? Doesn't he wonder why despite his superior communication skills, no one believed a word out of his mouth when he first launched TomKat? Sure, he can blame it on his publicist sister, but why didn't his powers detect that things were going pear-shaped before it was way too late?
For me, this is where the cognative dissonance would come in. What the say will happen and what actually happens generally doesn't match.
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Post by Babycakes on Feb 11, 2011 19:09:50 GMT -4
Well, in all honesty, it comes pretty close to making my head explode, because I just don't get it. I know people get depressed and lonely and desperate for answers, but do they also have no bullshit detectors? When I was a freshman in college, my roommate almost got sucked into a cult (a kinda Christian cult, not Scientology). I was only 18 and didn't know jack shit, but I smelled the crazy on them immediately. They left a message for her on our answering machine where they were totally love-bombing her, and I knew it before I even know what love-bombing was. I got worried and recruited the gal down the hall whose father was a minister to lend more credibility and talked to her. She admitted she thought the group was a bit strange, and she walked away. Another gal we hung out with got sucked in completely. Comparing the two, the other gal was more naive and, well, dumber than my roommate, but the clams suck in reasonably intelligent people. I mean, Tom Cruise doesn't strike me as the sharpest tool in the shed, but he isn't a drooling moron either. Doesn't he look at his mess of a public image and wonder why he can't fix it with his powers? Doesn't he wonder why despite his superior communication skills, no one believed a word out of his mouth when he first launched TomKat? Sure, he can blame it on his publicist sister, but why didn't his powers detect that things were going pear-shaped before it was way too late? For me, this is where the cognative dissonance would come in. What the say will happen and what actually happens generally doesn't match. Tammy doesn't think there's anything wrong with his career. To him, it's still 1994, and he's Ethan "Maverick" Hunt. He has who knows how many slaves sea orgs bowing to his every whim, and keeping him away from the internet, and sites like this. Trust me, he has no clue how big of a joke he is. I got stalked by a cult member my 1st year on campus. At first I thought she was just a lonely girl who was being really nice to me, because she had no other friends. Then she somehow found out my phone number and dorm location. It was starting to make me nervous, so I started going the other way to get to class, and managed to avoid her for a whole week. All the while she was blowing up my phone and stopping by my suite looking for me. One night I was in the laundry-room, and she walked in. I'd finally stopped being polite and told her to leave me alone. Two days later, I was walking across the quad, and there she was with 2 other girls and I guess their Minister. They surrounded me, and started telling me how much they loved me, and how I needed to give them a chance and to come to just one of their meetings. I was freaked out. I reported them to my RA, and found out the girl didn't even go to the school. Their group was notorious for showing up at the beginning of the year, "blending in", and trying to recruit freshman who were vulnerable. To this day, I don't know what religious group they were, but thinking back they gave me moonie or scienos vibes. And they seriously had me pegged wrong. I'm the most cynical/bitchiest people ever.
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Post by FiggyPudding on Feb 11, 2011 21:49:00 GMT -4
People can be driven to irrational behavior when they are vulnerable. Also, they can be flat out stupid. I work in psych, you would not believe the kind of stuff people do to justify themselves. That's how cults survive. I really hope the Feds do some serious damage to them.
On the up side, I enjoy seeing the multiple stories about this article, since they are paired with photos of Tom Cruise getting his fake medal, standing next to his best friend Miscaviage, along with the bikes, SUVs, and airplane hanger which were slaved over by abused workers.
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