roseland
Sloane Ranger
Posts: 2,039
Mar 7, 2005 17:11:37 GMT -4
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Post by roseland on Feb 9, 2011 14:39:30 GMT -4
Look, a lot of religions have silly beliefs if you're on the outside looking in. I mean, c'mon, a 13-year old girl is impregnanted by a ghost and gives birth to a guy who raises the dead and turns water into wine and also will save humanity simply by dying. A burning bush talks to a guy and hands him ten rules to live your life by. Joseph Smith found some tablets that he had to put into a hat to read with special glasses that he dictated to someone and that's how the Book of Mormon was written. While the Xenu story seems silly, all religions have silly stories that their believers accept without question. Frankly, that's not an issue for me. It's the abuse of its followers that is of the most concern here, I think.
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talkbox
Guest
Oct 3, 2024 23:18:19 GMT -4
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Post by talkbox on Feb 9, 2011 16:04:04 GMT -4
For the life of me, I have no idea why. For some reason our govenrment is so ridiculously intimidated by cults (except Clinton taking down WACO) and just wait and wait and wait and wait. The cult seems to have a damaging effect on the careers of celebs too. Travolta was once huge, but is now a joke, Cruise has lasted, but he's now a flake and has a career stalled, and now each and every single one who gets involved seems to lose it all.
Well, the law can't just act on circumstantial evidence and hearsay. They need a set of concrete evidence and then they can go from there.
For example, I might very well know the precise aspects of someoen who is money laundering, but unless I get an informer and physical evidence, the law can't do anything. When dealing with people like the Sciencos who kill people, the FBI might well want to tread very carefully and prevent any mishaps or loopholes that would enable the cult to get off via a reasonable doubt and jury intimidation.
The FBI may well end up having stacks of evidence and files on all of them, but they can't just go off and arrest until they catch someone in the act of doing the crime. THen additional charges can be brought. A mere matter of getting their foot in the door.
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Post by JeanBean on Feb 9, 2011 17:09:02 GMT -4
ITA, roseland. Is there a major religion that is not founded on "stories" that sound kind of crazy? It's just that Scientology is new, and so rather than being born into the tradition of that story, you have to accept it for yourself. Yeah, it seems strange, but so is the Immaculate Conception. It's the psychological abuse - and maybe physical - aspect of Scientology that disturbs me.
I think this is for a lot of the reasons you cite in the rest of your post. Freedom of speech, religion and expression give people a lot of leeway in their behavior. And it's incredibly hard to prove that something's wrong when the victims refuse to inform on those who mistreat them.
This Miscavige guy sounds like a nutjob. I wonder if under a new leader Scientology's reputation will improve.
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talkbox
Guest
Oct 3, 2024 23:18:19 GMT -4
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Post by talkbox on Feb 10, 2011 1:30:18 GMT -4
I think we're seeing the beginning of the end of Scientology. No one will take on leadership (and ultimate liability) if it means being in the sights of the Feds. Only a matter of time until it begins to fall apart. If the Feds haev their eye on you, once they have an 'in,' they don't stop.
The difference between religion and cult is that religion lets you donate, it doesn't REQUIRE money to give and they don't try to kill those who reject their teachings after learning.
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Post by eclair on Feb 10, 2011 11:23:46 GMT -4
Plus most religions, if not all, are upfront with the creation story and what is expected of their followers. They'd like people to tithe to support the institutions but it isn't required and if someone can't afford a bible, or koran or what have you they can get a free copy. Sure, some religions have rituals that are secret from the public or the average follower, but if someone looks into Islam and what it can do for them, they're told upfront about Allah, that Mohammed was a prophet, about daily prayer, dietary restrictions etc. The virgin birth and resurection are part of the most publicly known parts of Christianity. A person doesn't convert, donate huge amounts of money, either bring in all their friends and family only to find out years later that they are supposed to believe in immaculate conception and resurrection. If someone is Catholic and goes to confession and then later leaves the Catholic faith, they aren't threatened with everything they ever shared in the confessional.
Maybe a lot of religions start out like cults, but who would join the clams if they were told upfront about all of humanities problems all stemming from the ghosts of things that died on Venus from a volcanic eruption? (Do I have that right?)
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Deleted
Posts: 0
Oct 3, 2024 23:18:19 GMT -4
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Post by Deleted on Feb 10, 2011 11:34:34 GMT -4
The main question is who would join if they knew it would cost more than $100,000 to proceed through all the levels? The Scienos' official statement is that members are allowed to proceed through the levels at their own pace but there's lots of evidence that once you're in, you're pressured to spend more and more and more on courses and programs. I don't know any legit religions that practice a bait and switch. "You could come to prayers only on Friday night but really, don't you want to come five nights a week? Because you'd be a much better Muslim if you did. Just sayin'." "Sure, you could tithe 10% but if you really want to make it to heaven, you should fork over 25%. It's just what's done."
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Deleted
Posts: 0
Oct 3, 2024 23:18:19 GMT -4
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Post by Deleted on Feb 10, 2011 12:32:26 GMT -4
Exactly. Priests take the confessions very very seriously, it's like the Catholic version of doctor-patient confidentiality or attorney-client priviledge. Seal of the Confessional is a big deal. It cannot be broken for any reason whatsoever or they'll be automatically excommunicated. None of this blackmailing crap the Clams do.
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Deleted
Posts: 0
Oct 3, 2024 23:18:19 GMT -4
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Post by Deleted on Feb 11, 2011 0:54:25 GMT -4
Cruise is the highest level of OT isn't he? I'm not sure what haggis was but surely Cruise must know everything, he just choses to look the other way. Which is easy to do when you're a sociopath like Cruise.
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Post by kostgard on Feb 11, 2011 1:35:52 GMT -4
The beliefs aren't really the issue. Whatever floats your boat and makes you happy. If worshiping a guy named Steve and painting your ass red fills your soul, then knock yourself out.
The thing I don't get is first of all, it sounds like such bullshit. You're told one thing, then after you pay enough money, they tell you "Oh, that stuff we said before wasn't true. This stuff is true! We didn't tell you at first because you weren't ready for it!"
But those people who don't go "Screw this, I'm out" after the lies start piling up - why can't they see that a lot of it simply isn't true? Yes, Scientology works in some ways, because it is basically a self-help method very similar to other self-help programs. And talking about your problems in general (like during an auditing session) helps too. As they say, confession is good for the soul. BUT Scientology promises that you will become super-human. Seriously, they tell you that you are no longer human, no longer a homo sapien - you are a new kind of creature who is superior to humans. Clearly, this isn't true. You don't actually get super powers.
Why don't these people see that? Why can't they look at Tom Cruise, the ideal Scientologist, and see that he's a total joke and he can't actually control time and space the way an OT-whatever supposedly can. At least other religions keep things ephemeral and say you'll get amazing things in the afterlife or your next life. Some say that enlightenment is possible in this life, but it is very difficult to achieve. Scientology basically tells you that if you spend enough money, you can reach the highest level and gain super powers. It just reeks of bullshit and I can't believe that so many people fall for it.
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syve
Lady in Waiting
Posts: 314
Feb 1, 2009 20:50:32 GMT -4
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Post by syve on Feb 11, 2011 4:59:19 GMT -4
I think a lot of it is probably that by that stage they're so deep into scientology that they can't question it. Cognitive dissonance kicks in.
That theory was partly developed after a group of researchers studied a cult who believed the world was going to end, and all gathered to await it. When the world didn't end, they didn't stop believing, they started to believe in it even more.
Humans are weird. Maybe when they reach the Xenu story, it's easier to believe that they don't get it, or are doing scientology wrong, then to believe they've been duped by a bunch of crazy people.
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