Royalty in History

[azaleaqueen]

I assume you're referring to the daughter of Henry VIII, Snowberry. Yeah, I think she's been given sort of a bad rep as well as having had an unhappy life. She was her father's darling in her early childhood, then tossed aside and labeled a bastard, then married (by proxy, wasn't it) to a man who didn't love her. She couldn't help that she was so strong in her religious faith. That was what she had been taught. And her nickname "Bloody Mary" was undeserved, so I've read. There was far more bloodshed during the reigns of her father and sister because of religion than during hers.

[Karen]

I also feel sorry for Mary Tudor. She wanted a husband and a family, she wanted children, but instead she had to wait years and years until Edward VI died to finally have the chance to marry. And then it all went wrong. She fell in love with Philip of Spain when they met, but she soon had to endure the humiliation of a longed-for pregnancy that turned out to be false and see her husband leave knowing he had no real interest in returning.

As for 'Bloody Mary', I don't think she was more to blame than those counselors who promoted the policy of burning Protestants, but she was the Queen and it was seen as her responsibility.

If Henry had just married her to some unthreatening, insignificant lord who let her practice her faith in peace she would probably have been as happy as it was possible for her to be after the Reformation. As it turned out, she had counselors with no interest in her wellbeing, a husband who dragged England into his wars, and a sad ignorance of how impossible it had become to restore Catholicism to England.

After all this Tudor talk, I guess I'll have to make a post on Henry's wives one of these days.

[Deleted]

At least Jane Seymour was kind to both Mary and Elizabeth-Ann Boleyn treated Mary like dirt.

And then she was so in love with Phillip, but from what I gather, he couldn't stand her-he was only using her for her position. Poor, poor woman.

[pepper67]

I agree that Mary I definitely lost out all around. Being Queen didn't make her happy at all, and neither did Philip, as he was too busy making war and love - with other women - to waste his time making her happy once it became obvious that she couldn't give him an heir. After her death, didn't he even try courting Elizabeth for a while?

Edward VI pretty much lost out as well. Yeah, he was King for a while but how old was he when he died after a long illness? Fourteen? I pity all of Henry VIII's kids and wives actually. None of his wives had happy marriages and as he was the common denominator in each one, I'd blame him. Except for Catherine Parr - I have no idea what her first marriage was like, although I read that her third (after Henry) sucked too as her husband was FAR too interested in the future Elizabeth I.

Btw, I love the answer a German princess sent back when Henry VIII was searching for a wife after Jane Seymour had died. She said that she'd be pleased to marry him - if only she had two heads. Bet he was spitting feathers over that one.

And did anyone watch the TV series Monarchy? Or any of David Starkey's historical series actually. I find them fascinating.

[azaleaqueen]

Catherine Parr was also under suspicion during and after her marriage to Henry. People were constantly trying to prove her involvements in treasonous plots. I don't know anything about her associations with Henry's children or if she had anything to do with them.

[Deleted]

Catharine Parr (the sixth and last of Henry the VIII's wives) married Thomas Seymour (the brother of Jane Seymour, third wife of Henry VIII and mother of Edward IV). Catherine Parr and Thomas Seymour had some sort of guardianship of the Princess Elizabeth when she was quite young (in her teens) and Thomas Seymour is rumored to have known Princess Elizabeth, soon to be Queen Elizabeth I, quite well (socially and biblically).

Was Elizabeth I a Virgin Queen? She professed to be and no one (who talked) ever proved otherwise.

Anyway, Thomas Seymour ended up headless for treason (other than shagging Princess Elizabeth). I think that his brother, Edward Seymour, Lord Protector (?) and his nephew Edward IV, put him down.

[Karen]

The wives of the Big H...

Catherine of Aragon was a loyal wife who didn't deserve what she got (that applies to all of Henry's wives actually) but I admire the way she behaved during the divorce, fighting for her daughter's rights and what she believed in. She used the resources she had and managed to thwart Henry's designs for years. I'm rather fond of the account of Anne Boleyn acidly commenting to Henry that he shouldn't match wits with his wife since she always got the best of him.

I never like Anne much during the divorce or her early days as queen, but I have a great deal of sympathy for her when Henry turns to Jane Seymour. Anne didn't give him a son and wasn't submissive enough, so in the end she was executed on false charges. I have no doubt that they were false; just compare Henry's casual attitude to Anne's "adultery" with his later freakout when faced with Catherine Howard's actual adultery.

Jane is my least favourite wife. She was ambitious and manipulative but she cleverly hid that with the proper submissive image that pleased Henry after he'd had to deal with and frequently be outwitted by two strong women, Catherine and Anne. Her good treatment of his daughters is the only thing I like about her.

Poor Anne of Cleves, who ended up being called the Flanders Mare. She didn't know English customs and was ignorant of what Henry really thought of her, but in the end she managed to get a rather good life for herself by wisely letting Henry have the divorce he wanted.

Catherine Howard was too young and clueless to know what she was getting into. She didn't seem to comprehend that her past indiscretions might get her into trouble if they were revealed, and no one cared to enlighten her.

Catherine Parr is my favourite wife. She had common sense, she was a published author, and just all-around decent woman. She helped Henry reconcile with Mary and Elizabeth, who were restored to the succession, and saw to theirs and Edward's education. Catherine managed to promote her Protestant faith and cleverly foiled an attempt to ruin her by appealing to Henry's vanity and getting him to deliver the smackdown on the conspirators. She was happy when she married Thomas Seymour who she'd been in love with before Henry's proposal, but then he started chasing Elizabeth.

To give a few numbers, two of Henry's wives died in childbirth (Jane, Catherine P), two foreign princesses died cast off (Catherine A, Anne C), four women of modest birth became queens and two of them died as traitors (Anne B, Catherine H).

I've seen the Starkey series on the wives and Elizabeth. I think it's amusing how dramatic he can be when narrating. His book on the wives, though, isn't that good.

Btw, I love the answer a German princess sent back when Henry VIII was searching for a wife after Jane Seymour had died. She said that she'd be pleased to marry him - if only she had two heads. Bet he was spitting feathers over that one.

That was pretty young widow Christina of Milan, originally of Denmark. I also like the reply of Mary of Guise, future mother of Mary Queen of Scots. After hearing reports of her voluptuous figure Henry grew interested and said that being a big man himself he needed a big wife. Mary supposedly replied that she might be big but she had a very little neck.

Seymour got physical with Elizabeth in the sense that he'd go greet her in her bedroom before she was dressed, for example, but I understand that it's pretty generally accepted they never went far beyond that. Later I believe Elizabeth was too aware of the risk to her reputation and health to have actual intercourse, even with her great love Robert Dudley.

Oh, I hope this post isn't too long...

[Deleted]

Love it, KarenK! I don't think it was too long at all!

And did anyone watch the TV series Monarchy? Or any of David Starkey's historical series actually.

Yes! I thought they were very well done.

Anyway, Thomas Seymour ended up headless for treason (other than shagging Princess Elizabeth)

I've read that he was scheming enough to try but never actually succeeded. Not that anyone will would know for sure... but most of what I've read said he hadn't...

[luciano]

bagatelle said:

I've read that he was scheming enough to try but never actually succeeded. Not that anyone will would know for sure... but most of what I've read said he hadn't...

Yeah, that's what I have read as well - he would play around with and kiss Elizabeth, sometimes while in his nightgown, but I never read that he had actually had sex with her. You can't really prove something like that, I guess.

There were rumors back then that he got her pregnant and that she had a miscarriage, and that the fetus was buried somewhere in the house. This is seen as gossips licking their chops.

[pepper67]

Catherine Parr was also under suspicion during and after her marriage to Henry. People were constantly trying to prove her involvements in treasonous plots.

Oh yeah, I know, azaleaqueen. When I said 'except for Catherine Parr', I didn't mean that her marriage to Henry was happy - just that I have no idea whether her first marriage was or not. I think she was lucky to get out of her marriage to Henry alive. The guy was crazy. I wonder what kind of a King his elder brother, Arthur, would have made if he'd lived to succeed Henry VII.

Anyway, Thomas Seymour ended up headless for treason (other than shagging Princess Elizabeth). I think that his brother, Edward Seymour, Lord Protector (?) and his nephew Edward IV, put him down.

Yeah, he tried to take Edward into 'protective custody' and was arrested by the guards.

Catherine Howard was too young and clueless to know what she was getting into. She didn't seem to comprehend that her past indiscretions might get her into trouble if they were revealed, and no one cared to enlighten her.

Poor Catherine Howard! I really do pity her as well - a lot of the women associated with Henry deserve pity, IMHO. She didn't have a clue.