Duke and Duchess of Windsor

[sunpoppy]

I've heard the Elizabeth had a crush rumor too and I believe it. Edward was a catch in his youth- Bertie was a stammering, shy goof, by all accounts.

That was a rumor as well that Elizabeth was in love with another man (Scotch). From all accounts I've read, if you spent more than five minutes in David's company, you quickly realized he was totally insensitive and dumber than a box of rocks. Bertie repeatedly demonstrated that he was the more intelligent of the two. IMO, Bertie was also the handsomer of the two. After about 30, David started to resemble a basset hound.

I believe there were many, many objections to Wallis. First, of course, was that she had two living former husbands. She was older than he and unlikely to bear an heir, and certainly, her legitimacy was in great question.

The years she spent between Wallis's first and second marriage seem kinda shady. I don't mean the, IMO, silly stories that she learned special sexual techniques at a brothel in China or that she was a spy, but when she returned to the US, she became the mistress of a married South American diplomat or government official. I believe, too, that Ernest Simpson left his wife for her.

David did have Nazi sympathies, which he expressed as king. I doubt Wallis was interested in such things. They did go to Germany after their marriage because Hitler was the only one who treated them as they believed they should be treated: one rung below the King and Queen of England. I question that the Windsors ever understood what the abdication meant.

She [Queen Mother] did love being Queen, she loved it so much she was called Queen twice!

I agree that Elizabeth loved being queen, but she was an anointed queen consort and, as such, had a right to be called 'Queen.' Queen Mary never used 'Queen Mother' after Bertie ascended the throne nor did Queen Alexandra. I think she did it to avoid confusion when her daughter took the throne.

[Auroranorth]

Oct 1, 2008 23:47:15 GMT -4 @sunpoppy said:

I've heard the Elizabeth had a crush rumor too and I believe it. Edward was a catch in his youth- Bertie was a stammering, shy goof, by all accounts.

That was a rumor as well that Elizabeth was in love with another man (Scotch). From all accounts I've read, if you spent more than five minutes in David's company, you quickly realized he was totally insensitive and dumber than a box of rocks. Bertie repeatedly demonstrated that he was the more intelligent of the two. IMO, Bertie was also the handsomer of the two. After about 30, David started to resemble a basset hound.

Yes, but he was the Prince of Wales and nobody thought Bertie would ever become King. Any ambitious girl would have wanted the future King, not a second son.

[sunpoppy]

Yes, but he was the Prince of Wales and nobody thought Bertie would ever become King. Any ambitious girl would have wanted the future King, not a second son.

I see your point, but, IMO, three things argue against Elizabeth's wanting to marry David. First was his choice in mistresses: all older married women who mothered him. Elizabeth couldn't make herself older, and she doesn't seem the maternal type. In the end, David became infatuated with a loud American who mothered and bullied him.

Second, David had mumps when he was 14, and according to what I have read, they descended into his testicles. While not common, this can cause sterility and/or testicular atrophy. I read that some man who saw David naked noticed his penis and testicles looked small and juvenile. Elizabeth undoubtedly would have known about this, so while she might have wanted to marry the first son, she would have known it was unlikely children could result from the union. Then of course she would have faced the fact and resultant humiliation that it was likely David would be an adulterer during their marriage.

Although marriage to Bertie wouldn't make her queen (so she thought), she could produce the heir to the throne. Also, George V adored Elizabeth and the two daughters Bertie and she produced. This made life very pleasant for the Yorks and gained them many perks and treasure.

Finally, the Duke of Windsor's sexual orientation has been questioned for many years. Noel Coward was once asked why the DoW didn't like him. Coward replied, 'He pretends not to hate me, but he does, and it's because I'm queer and he's queer, but unlike him I don't pretend not to be.' It also is likely Elizabeth was aware of this speculation, which would make her wonder with whom David would be an adulterer.

Altogether, I think Elizabeth would consider it quite a risk to marry David. Not much 'value added' in the important areas.

[azaleaqueen]

I watched a TV show about the D&D a few years ago. On Biography, I think. Anyway, the two of them became two of the most useless people of the 20th century. "Cafe society", if you will. They interviewed some old lady who was friends with them and she talked about their dogs peeing all over the priceless antique carpets in their apartment.

No, David's father didn't want him to be king. He didn't approve of all the affairs with married women and didn't think he could settle down and run the country. He much favored George and Lilibet.

And whoever said David looked like a basset hound was right.

[Peggy Lane]

I think a movie about their lives post-abducation could be really interesting. Kindly, they could cast Ralph Fiennes as David. I'm not sure who could play Wallis. The utter extravagent waste of their lives once they married seems like it could be mined for good drama.

Trying to decide who was more attractive or intelligent between David and Bertie...I mean, I don't think either were overly gifted in either area. David, though, did have some dash and style about him while Bertie looked like he'd accidentally knock soup over in your lap during dinner.

[azaleaqueen]

Well, imo, although neither of them was my idea of a dreamboat, at least Bertie didn't look like a basset.

I thnk it was widely known that David was quite shallow and unintellectual, but Bertie stuttered (I have heard that he claimed it was the result of being switched from left-handed to right-handed) and so I imagine most people considered him a bit dim, even though he might not have been.

[sunpoppy]

I watched a TV show about the D&D a few years ago. On Biography, I think. Anyway, the two of them became two of the most useless people of the 20th century. "Cafe society", if you will. They interviewed some old lady who was friends with them and she talked about their dogs peeing all over the priceless antique carpets in their apartment.

And whoever said David looked like a basset hound was right.

It was D&D's life post abdication that showed the world what they were made of. These two persons could have used their fame to accomplish so many charitable acts. They could have toured the US selling war bonds, worked at a USO club, lent their name and support to the Red Cross—the list is long of what they could have done to help so many people. Talk about squandered lives!

Glad you like my basset hound comparison.

Trying to decide who was more attractive or intelligent between David and Bertie...I mean, I don't think either were overly gifted in either area. David, though, did have some dash and style about him while Bertie looked like he'd accidentally knock soup over in your lap during dinner.

I thnk it was widely known that David was quite shallow and unintellectual, but Bertie stuttered (I have heard that he claimed it was the result of being switched from left-handed to right-handed) and so I imagine most people considered him a bit dim, even though he might not have been.

Bertie was actually graceful. He was an excellent tennis player, swimmer, dancer and rode very well.

As far as Bertie's stuttering, it's a pity his parents didn't seek help when he was young. He was, however, in good company. Among his fellow stutters are James Earl Jones, Carly Simon, Winston Churchill (and he had a lisp too), Jimmy Stewart, Rowan Atkinson and Samuel L. Jackson.

From Wikipedia:

There is evidence of differences in linguistic processing between stutterers and non-stutterers. Brain scans of adult stutterers have found increased activation of the right hemisphere, which is associated with emotions, than in the left hemisphere, which is associated with speech. In addition reduced activation in the left auditory cortex has been observed.

Feelings of embarrassment, shame, frustration, fear, anger, and guilt are frequent in stutterers.

Nonetheless, Bertie pulled up his socks and, despite his speaking problem, took over the reins from his irresponsible brother. He worked hard to be a good king, and I think the people of Great Britain respected and liked him for his efforts.

As far as intelligence, there are very few IQ points between an A student and a C student. It's largely motivation and application, which Bertie possessed and David didn't.

Garrison Keillor said, 'Luck isn't getting what you wanted but what you would have wanted—had you but known.' When I think on this, I think the people of Great Britain were very lucky to have Bertie as King during WWII.

[Peggy Lane]

Oh, I completely agree. I didn't mean to accidentally bash Bertie. Like I said in my first post, the abdication was the best thing that could have happened for the British people. I was simply stating that David came off better socially when they were younger, and I still believe that. I've watched old MovieTone reels, and David has a sort of natural charm.

While Bertie was a good king, though, I don't think he was particularly bright. There are countless stories about his utter lack of curiosity in the world, and he himself bemoaned his god-awful education.

[sunpoppy]

Oct 4, 2008 18:17:27 GMT -4 Peggy Lane said:

Oh, I completely agree. I didn't mean to accidentally bash Bertie. Like I said in my first post, the abdication was the best thing that could have happened for the British people. I was simply stating that David came off better socially when they were younger, and I still believe that. I've watched old MovieTone reels, and David has a sort of natural charm.

While Bertie was a good king, though, I don't think he was particularly bright. There are countless stories about his utter lack of curiosity in the world, and he himself bemoaned his god-awful education.

I've seen those newsreels and agree David was boyishly attractive when he was young. I wonder, though, would anyone have paid much attention to this small cute man if he wasn't the POW? How much of his charm, which he appears to have lost upon abdication, was real and how much related to his position?

I'm not suggesting Bertie was highly intelligent; he was a plodder who got the job done. Do you think a really intelligent person would be a good king or queen? I'm not so sure an intelligent person with a highly developed sense of curiosity could survive as monarch without going bonkers.

I'm not saying QEII doesn't work hard for she does at what she does. It's just not work I'd find very interesting or challenging. Were I queen, I think that, after about six months, they'd find me in the throne room curled up in the fetal position babbling about wanting an interesting conversation—just one. ::crazy laughter::

[ennui]

Oct 4, 2008 15:34:38 GMT -4 @sunpoppy said:

It was D&D's life post abdication that showed the world what they were made of. These two persons could have used their fame to accomplish so many charitable acts. They could have toured the US selling war bonds, worked at a USO club, lent their name and support to the Red Cross—the list is long of what they could have done to help so many people.

I think the abdication showed what they were made of; if David were concerned about a life of service, he would have kept the throne. Edited to add, it was also socially acceptable to simply be wealthy and have fun. Recently, I watched a biography of Porfirio Rubirosa -- it was acceptable to be a wealthy playboy, drinking, gambling, playing polo, and seducing wealthy women. No one was interested in depth of character in those days, it was about having a good time.

Were I queen, I think that, after about six months, they'd find me in the throne room curled up in the fetal position babbling about wanting an interesting conversation—just one. ::crazy laughter::

But people would hang on your every word, and laugh uproariously at your jokes. You would think you were brilliant! And hysterically funny! You'd never know the difference.