Deleted
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Sept 27, 2024 23:21:19 GMT -4
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Post by Deleted on Sept 7, 2006 1:26:14 GMT -4
Hmm, in reading my previous posts, I don't see where I wrote that the princesses "absolutely required" to marry old establishment. I said it's highly likely that they'll marry someone very well-connected to them. Certainly, they won't just marry a street vendor, but I don't see them marrying someone without said connections. I also did not assert that they will never lead normal lives. I should clarify what I mean: that is, you will not see them marrying normal working people without illustrious family history. Emperor Showa's daughters all married to someone who could have had a title: -Shikego married Prince Morihiro, son of Prince Naruhikou. -Kazuko married the eldest son of Duke Takatsukasa, who was desecended from the Kujou branch of the imperial family and was connected to Empress Teimei (wife to Emperor Taishou). -Atsuko married into the Ikeda family, which wields considerable power in Okayama-ban and held important positions in the shogunate. -Takako is married to the second son of Duke Shimatsu, whose family had owned Satsuma-ban (present-day Kakojima, Miyazaki) and also held high positions in the shogunate. You could say that the connections are made two generations back, but in Japan, these old connections carry quite far. As for leading quiet lives, well, I think it's because the paps just don't follow them around like the British or the European royals and there just isn't a lot about them out there. They are not the type to draw attention to themselves.
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kafka
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Sept 27, 2024 23:21:19 GMT -4
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Post by kafka on Sept 7, 2006 2:08:31 GMT -4
You said, "It's pretty much a given that they will be married to someone connected to the old aristocracy" and I simply don't think that's an automatic "given" for the future. Whatever Kuroda's connections, he's hardly part of the aristocratic establishmentarian group, particularly as any money his family may have came from industrial ventures. Again, not "old aristocracy." I think the rule -- if there was one --- won't be a requirement for the future by the time Akishino's daughters or Aiko are ready to marry.
You also said that the princesses "still won't be able to live like normal people" and I disagree with that. Yes, the media in Japan is not akin to that in the UK or Scandanavian countries, but just because every single sordid detail isn't raked over as in the British tabloids doesn't mean that the former imperial princesses don't lead normal lives. They do.
I write on the IHA and the JIF for various publications and I keep a very close eye on what's written on the Imperial Family in all the presses, Japanese, Korean, Chinese, European and otherwise. When was the last time there was an indepth or even cursory article on one of the Emperor's sisters? The last time one of them was mentioned in detail was with regard to Nori's dowry and how it compared to the last one given to an Imperial princess.
You say the lack of media attention is because, in Japan, it's not a question of drawing attention to themselves. I absolutely agree with that. It's not the Japanese way. But whether the former imperial princesses wanted to draw attention to themselves, or tried to do so and failed (which they didn't), the bottom line remains that the Japanese press doesn't focus on the former Imperial princesses. Intensely or otherwise.
The Imperial princesses who marry out of the family have had private, normal, quiet lives. For the past few decades, the Emperor's sisters have indeed been "able to live like normal people."
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Deleted
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Sept 27, 2024 23:21:19 GMT -4
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Post by Deleted on Sept 7, 2006 2:29:17 GMT -4
I do see your point, Kafka. I guess I'm a little harsh and critical on how well former royals adjust to normal pleb life--I literally cringed when I read that Saya held up a register line for 30 minutes (to buy relatively few things) because she had absolutely no idea how to buy groceries. I can take it that she's never shopped before, but come on--she had had to have been exposed to television and watched programs, which probably had shown people shopping. But yes, there are worse crimes than holding up a queue I'm just not too convinced how well they can adjust to civilian life, that's all. It must be quite a transition from a catered and very sheltered life to one where you actually would have to do your own laundry at some point. But ah, whatever. They are rich enough for hired help.
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kafka
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Sept 27, 2024 23:21:19 GMT -4
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Post by kafka on Sept 7, 2006 3:41:27 GMT -4
I'm just not too convinced how well they can adjust to civilian life, that's all. It must be quite a transition from a catered and very sheltered life to one where you actually would have to do your own laundry at some point. I absolutely agree with you on that point. It must be an incredibly hard transition and, like you, I doubt that they managed it well, let alone easily at first. But where I was coming from initially was in terms of having a life under the media microscope or with constant daily scrutiny, and that is something I don't think the former princesses have had to deal with. But an easy transition? As you've said, far from it. Especially given the financial provisions for their non-imperial life, provisions which hardly permit a luxurious, extravagant life, particularly in light of cost-of-living expenses in Tokyo. I don't know. I have to wonder about how much they've seen about those very common, basic aspects of a non-royal's life. And even if they could watch television shows with adverts for household items and products, how can you really know what is good or necessary unless you've got some knowledge of that "common", household, mundane sort of life? Think of former President Bush, father to the current American president, who tried to go to a supermarket during his run for office and was totally lost and out of his depth at the register. He certainly had more freewill and control over his daily existence than a member of the JIF under daily IHA control, but even so, he was so clueless that he might as well have been living in a bubble. If that was the case for an adult male in the US, then how much more difficult for a former Imperial Princess? I can imagine her being totally overwhelmed by the amount, selection and free will aspects of things. Also, I'm not sure that she (or any of the Imperial Princesses) would really have had any opportunity to be exposed to "normal" aspects of a commoner's life. Until recently, the JIF didn't have private phone lines and had to go through the IHA to make calls to each other, let alone to the outside. Actually, I'm still not sure they *can* make calls to the outside without it going through IHA approval. Perhaps the Emperor himself, but the phone lines they got in the past 7 years or so were only within the Imperial Palaces, IIRC. (It's late and I haven't slept in 2 days, so my memory is going right now.) I think Nori/Sayako probably had the most normal of all the relatively young royals of the past generation. She didn't take the subway to go to her job prior to her engagement but at least she had a job, which is more than prior female royals were permitted. I think she had much more "regular," "normal" contact (within quotes because it's all relatively speaking)(HIGHLY relatively speaking) with the plebs than probably the rest of them combined in recent years. But she's of the new generation. And I think that's the key factor. It will probably get easier as the years progress for the new crop of young imperial princesses, particularly as compared to the older lot. The Emperor's sisters were probably complete fishes out waters when they first married. And given the even more cloistered, repressed upbringing they had, it was probably a thousand times harder for them than for Nori/Sayako, and even more so than what Prsses Kako or Aiko will experience when it's their turn. But even so, once they married, the Emperor's sisters were not hounded by the press, even by relatively repressed Japanese standards, so they got a lot of freedom relative to what they had before under the IHA thumb. And with that freedom and the absence of daily scrutiny has to come some normalcy. So yes, adjust must have been frightening and hugely difficult in the beginning. But with time, the freedom to make their own choices, and being out from under a microscope (whether of the IHA's making or the media), I think the former imperial princesses have ended up a very "normal" life. It's a lot more mundane and plebeian than even someone like Fergie, or Prss Ragnhild of Norway, let alone Martha-Louise of Norway.
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Deleted
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Sept 27, 2024 23:21:19 GMT -4
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Post by Deleted on Sept 7, 2006 4:47:49 GMT -4
This is totally OTC, but Kafka...it's in the afternoon for me here. What time is it over there? Imagine my surprise when I check on this thread and *gasp* immediate response! Thanks for the good discussion and all but you've got to go to sleep Two days without is not good at all.
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kafka
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Sept 27, 2024 23:21:19 GMT -4
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Post by kafka on Sept 7, 2006 5:15:24 GMT -4
Believe me, I'm trying, Yuna, I'm trying. But my adored German Shepherd (see avatar for a photo of when he was a puppy) is sick and his meds make him need to go out every hour on the hour, if not every 20 minutes or so. (Gosh, that was terribly ungrammatical. My apologies.) On Topic: Some of you may be interested in an article on the tough choices faced by Japanese women. It posits things slightly in terms of Kiko versus Masako, the traditional path, versus the modern... . Excerpts: To quote an editorial in the Times', "oh boy, what a wasted opportunity" for Japan. The politicians have officially shelved the bill intended at changing the succession law (what a surprise), while the new baby was allotted 3.05 million yen per year for his needs and within hours of his birth (from "official" funds, while those of his sisters comes from a budget set aside for "royal dignity" ). And, irony of ironies, Pr. Akishino has been complaining of the media attention and lack of privacy he and his family have been experiencing. I wonder if he now sympathises with his brother and Masako's plight, or if he thinks about how he officially sided with the IHA against his own brother when he publicly criticised Naruhito for defending Masako against the IHA.
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Deleted
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Sept 27, 2024 23:21:19 GMT -4
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Post by Deleted on Sept 7, 2006 6:09:22 GMT -4
Great article, Kafka. With all its achievement, it's amazing how socially backward Japan can be. Women are expected to retire from work and become a stay-at-home mom once they are married. When they have children, they then compete with one another through their children--there have been numerous cases where mothers have killed children that they consider to be rivals (academically) of their own children. It's absolutely horrendous.
I hope Aiko works diligently in school for the sake of her mother.
Speaking of Akishino, I vaguely recall reading gossip of him having mistresses overseas (in Britain or something?), but that he gets a pass because his family is considered to be cute-looking in the context of other imperial family members (some of the lesser princesses are quite fug). I wonder if there's any truth to that?
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kafka
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Sept 27, 2024 23:21:19 GMT -4
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Post by kafka on Sept 7, 2006 10:09:58 GMT -4
Yuna, I haven't heard about him squirreling away mistresses overseas but I have heard quite a bit about his player/playboy tendencies when younger, along with some sotto voce mutterings about how he hadn't changed much.... The last time was a few years ago and nothing since then so maybe he's stopped. But as a friend of mine often says, leopards don't change their spots... Whatever the case, I have to laugh whenever I hear the press refer to him and Kiko as highschool sweethearts because I highly doubt he was faithful to her when he was a young man. What I don't understand is why he's considered to be cute. I think Naruhito is better looking out of the two of them. Akishino looks like he has a reptilian foetal head, like something out of a Voldemort description in Book One of the Harry Potter series. Plus, he always looks smug, full of himself, arrogant, and constipated all at the same time. I'll be frank and say that I just can't stand him, so maybe that influences me but I think I wouldn't find him goodlooking even if I thought he were a nice person. Which I don't. Very far from it. I thought I'd share with the group the Aug. 18th photos of Masako, Naruhito and Aiko with Queen Beatrix and the Dutch royals at Loos Palace because they're really nice. (You can see some different ones here.) Aiko is beyond adorable, and Masako looks so relaxed, happy and comfortable. A dramatic difference from her tight, pinched, unhappy, stressed palor when in Japan. One of my best friends noted an ironic fact: the two little girls (Aiko and Prss. Catharine-Amalia) are dressed almost alike and are front and center with the Queen Regnant. A Queen Regnant with her grand-daughter, who will eventually rule in her own right, next to the little girl whom no-one will let reign. One almost has to wonder if it was a deliberate attempt by the very smart, steely Queen Beatrix to send a subtle political and PR message to the Japanese establishment. If so, it seems to be a message to which they refuse to listen.
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Post by Auroranorth on Sept 7, 2006 15:37:24 GMT -4
1. Those two little girls look adorable together! 2. Akishino is the anesthesis of hot, sexy, cute- you name it, he isn't it. 3. Princess Masako needs to start a palace revolution and take over the show. 4. Kafka, please get some sleep! Exaustion is bad. And scritch your furry child for me, plus paw kissing!
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nitenurse
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Sept 27, 2024 23:21:19 GMT -4
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Post by nitenurse on Sept 7, 2006 16:35:36 GMT -4
Methinks Masako may have one last go of it on the table to conceive a boy just to get back at her brother and sister-in-law. That was my first thought as well. She has been looking happy and relaxed in those photos from the Nederlands, so who knows what Royals get up to when there's no pressure on? I'm sure Kafka will keep a keen eye out over the next four months for any titbits....
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