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Post by Ninja Bunny on Apr 21, 2014 20:12:23 GMT -4
What really bothers me about their decision is that in the books Jaime is strongly and consistently anti-rape. That's one if his redeeming qualities. As a teenager Jaime wanted to stop Mad King Aerys when he overheard the king raping his wife Rhaella. He rescued Brienne and Pia from being raped (or raped further in Pia's case) and beheaded Pia's rapist. He later grilled Pia's boyfriend to make sure that he wouldn't hurt Pia or do anything she didn't want to do, and Robert's rough treatment of Cersei disturbed Jaime in a way that went beyond just being jealous.
I really hate what the show has done to Jaime (and as awful as Cersei is, she didn't deserve that).
ETA: The orgy didn't bother me because everyone was having fun and that's how Oberyn and Ellaria roll, they're really into each other and just about everyone else for that matter. Oberyn doesn't do anything by half measures, he fights and he loves with the volume cranked up to eleven.
As for all the peeing, it's a modification from something in the books. A book character who didn't make it into the show was a big, lovable, and undefeated pit fighter named Strong Belwas. Barristan Selmy was posing as his squire and the two of them met Dany together. When the champion for Meereen came out, it was Belwas who challenged him. Belwas taunted the Meereenese by turning around, dropping trou, and taking a huge "fuck you!" poo right in front of them. It was the most awesome poo incident I had ever read. In the show they just had Daario and the other guy pee at each other which was lame.
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iClaudia
Sloane Ranger
"When love and duty are one, grace is within you."
Posts: 2,215
Mar 13, 2005 14:33:41 GMT -4
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Post by iClaudia on Apr 21, 2014 20:35:48 GMT -4
I think they were being a bit too ambitious with this scene and just could not pull it off. I think the goal was to show that Cersei had mixed emotions - she wanted Jaime in that moment but she was also grieving over her son whose dead body was right beside them. The heart of the scene should have been Cersei - her desire and her guilt for her desire. The same guilty and shameful desire that produced Joffrey in the first place. This would not have been an easy thing to accomplish and they should have realized that they didn't capture what they intended to and re-shot the scene (or parts of it).
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Post by kostgard on Apr 21, 2014 21:31:44 GMT -4
What really bothers me about their decision is that in the books Jaime is strongly and consistently anti-rape. That's one if his redeeming qualities. As a teenager Jaime wanted to stop Mad King Aerys when he overheard the king raping his wife Rhaella. He rescued Brienne and Pia from being raped (or raped further in Pia's case) and beheaded Pia's rapist. He later grilled Pia's boyfriend to make sure that he wouldn't hurt Pia or do anything she didn't want to do, and Robert's rough treatment of Cersei disturbed Jaime in a way that went beyond just being jealous. I really hate what the show has done to Jaime (and as awful as Cersei is, she didn't deserve that). Exactly. And it's why I'm not furious with Jaime for what he did - I'm just confused. I'm just sitting here going "Why? Why this character change? The Jaime of the books wouldn't rape Cersei because he absolutely was not down with rape despite living in a world where it was basically a given fact of life. So what the hell are they doing here?" Even within just the show he's a guy who lost his hand in large part because he was trying to stop Locke and his men from raping Brienne. He could have kept his mouth shut and let something that happens to female prisons in wartime frequently just happen and he would have gone home in one piece. And he never seemed to regret getting involved there - yes, he's mourning the loss of his hand and identity, but he's never been all "Man, I never should have gotten involved." He doesn't regret what he did because he knows it was the right thing to do. And his love for Cersei, twisted though it is, is rather chivalrous. He's been completely faithful to her despite surely having numerous opportunities to sleep with someone else and despite Cersei not being faithful to him. And he gave up inheriting Tywin's title and lands so he could join the Kingsguard to stay near Cersei. So he builds his life around Cersei, loses a hand while trying to prevent Brienne's rape, then...turns around and rapes Cersei? Buh? I think iClaudia may be on to something and they were trying for something different and less rape-y and missed by a country mile, but...blergh. This is just a really unpleasant turn.
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Post by petitesuite on Apr 22, 2014 3:19:12 GMT -4
Wow. That scene with Jaime and Cersei in the sept was different and much worse than in the books. Way to kill the goodwill he built up in the baths and when he rescued Brienne. A huge BOO to the writer or producer who decided to depict that scene like that. Yeah, after that scene I thought, "Little too rape-y there, guys." In the books, it started out with Cersei saying no, but then it was very much consensual. I think I stopped reading the books before this scene, or at least I don't remember it, but I don't think this is much better. I absolutely hate this idea that no is just a blip on the road to yes--if she said no and was talked into it, then she was coerced, and it wasn't consensual and I don't see how it's that different from the rape portrayed on the show. I'm sure that's not what GRRM meant to show, but that to me is more an indictment of him than anything else. I'm disgusted that the director doesn't think he shot a rape scene.
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Post by Ninja Bunny on Apr 22, 2014 3:40:13 GMT -4
In the books her objection was someone, particularly a septon, would walk in and discover them. Otherwise she was into it:
So, yeah. The show was much different.
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Post by petitesuite on Apr 22, 2014 5:12:22 GMT -4
Am I reading this wrong? I did some googling and found this part which I believe is written right before what you've quoted:
How does he not hear her? It sounds to me like she's talking plenty and to me the litany of excuses reads...well, precisely like that, like she doesn't want to. And I think 'he never heard her' is GRRM awkwardly writing his way around that. Again, I haven't read it, but is there another line that clarifies this?
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Post by Ninja Bunny on Apr 22, 2014 5:37:58 GMT -4
Here's the whole shebangScroll down to pg 784, it starts there and the most relevant parts go for a couple of pages. It reads to me that her objection is that Jaime doesn't want to wait to "find an appropriate room" as it were and wants to have sex right there, in a church, next to their dead son's body, where the other nobles and monks and nuns and even the pope or Tywin himself could walk in on them at any time, plus she's disgusted by him losing his hand.
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Post by Neurochick on Apr 22, 2014 9:33:59 GMT -4
In the book, I thought Cersei was saying, "no, not here" in the show it came off just as "no."
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Post by Baby Fish Mouth on Apr 22, 2014 10:19:04 GMT -4
I've seen people on other message boards claiming it wasn't rape because Cersei wasn't hitting or kicking him hard enough. Dude, she said "no" or "don't" about ten different times, so if that's not rape I don't know what is. Massive failure on the director and/or editor's part.
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Karen
Blueblood
Posts: 1,122
Mar 10, 2005 10:32:09 GMT -4
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Post by Karen on Apr 23, 2014 11:04:02 GMT -4
It's such a shame that this show is so consistently awful when it comes to sex. Mostly the sexposition and female nudity been an annoyance in the background and something to inspire eye-rolling, but this week it was impossible to ignore because GOT wrecked major characters but didn't seem to realise that it had done so. Now Jaime is a rapist and Cersei has been punished for not wanting to have sex with him after he returned. I love many of the show's female characters and I just wish I could enjoy GOT without needing to wonder who's going to be the next one to be made into a helpless pawn in sexy distress. I've seen people on other message boards claiming it wasn't rape because Cersei wasn't hitting or kicking him hard enough. Dude, she said "no" or "don't" about ten different times, so if that's not rape I don't know what is. Massive failure on the director and/or editor's part. Oh yes, the excuses. I've seen all the classics. I don't know what's been the lowest point (and I stopped reading the comments in critics' reviews when a quick look was already enough to show how nasty and dismissive they were); perhaps the guy posting that in order to judge the scene we need to turn the sound off (her saying "no" and all that) and look at her actions because she wasn't fighting the trained warrior who's bigger than she is one-armed man hard enough.
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