Greek Royals

[nuharoo]

I sometimes wonder how Anne-Marie feels about her sister and sister-in-law being real reigning Queens (In Sophia's case, a Queen Consort) and she's stuck with an ass like Constantine and in London in exile. She's also stuck with Marie-Chantal too now that I think about it.

[Mouse]

I get the impression that a constitutional monarchy was simply not right for Greece. It seemed like a great idea circa 1840. Maybe if the Greek royals had married ethnic Greeks, been more discreet with their politics and influence, followed the lead of other European constitutional monarchs, and done a better job of being symbols of national unity, they would've been much more popular--and might even still be on the throne.

I read once that Constantine referred to a left-wing political party as a miasma. Not a smart move, guy.

Really, it sounds like his problem is that he's dumb as a rock.

[Oxynia]

Mouse, I think you are completely correct. If better, more qualified and self-restrained people had been put on the throne, and if they did not turn their nose up to the idea of marrying ethnic Greeks, they would very likely still be there.

The difficulty with Greece has always been its political instability. The monarchy was installed only within a single generation of Greece's independence from 400 years of Ottoman rule. That was not nearly enough time to sort through all of the different political ideologies that existed. Politically, the country remained polarised despite becoming a monarchy. By WWII, Greece had come under Nazi occupation, enabled in large part by the fact that the divisions among the country's political ideologies was at an all-time high and made the country very weak to defend.

Pavlos, for all of his historical appeal, came along at the start of Greece's brutal civil war, which was ten times more horrific than WWII had been. My grandparents have devastating stories to tell of that time. Pavlos could have been any monarch, it was the throne that people found hope in, not necessarily the man sitting on it. He represented an ideal that was the anti-communist way of life, and that ideal is what inspired people to fight for democracy.

The next nearly 20 years saw the political divisions become ever more entrenched. A strong king would have united the country at that time but Pavlos was not a strong king. Instead, his weakness gave strength to the military, which is a dangerous situation for a country used to autocracy. By the time Tino took the throne, Greece was ready for major political change and it took place under his watch. His inability to stay out of it made it much, much worse and led to the generals' coup. Had Tino been a strong king instead of a bumbling arse, the country might not have fallen to the right, families like my husband's would not have fled, and Greece would be a stronger nation to this day.

[kelly9480]

oxynia said:

kelly, we may be using the word "popular" differently but I think in the end we're saying the same thing. Likeability is one thing and I agree that Sofia and Anne-Marie are thought of as likeable enough. They are just not popular in the sense that they are even remotely on anyone's mind.

I was born and raised in Greece, I can assure you that the people of that country have long since stopped caring about royals of any sort. If you ask what they think of any one of them, they will have specific opinions (as they do on every subject, but that's another story)...Anne-Marie is pitied, Sofia is respected, Tino is abhorred. But Greeks don't spend much time thinking of them at all, so in that sense one cannot consider any of them popular in Greece at all.

I agree that we're saying the same thing. I know some fervent monarchist Greeks who are in their mid-20s and they just adore Tino and his clan. Sometimes I sit there and ask myself, is this because they never had to actually experience his rule? But I leave them to their Tino-worshipping in peace.

It's very difficult to gauge people's opinions about deposed monarchies. I mean, any time Tino and his brood are in Greece, you have the fanatics kowtowing to them, the fanatics wishing death on them, and the ambivalent majority doing nothing. So the pro-Tino crowd can point to the worshipful Greek grannies (they tend to be Tino's age and older, from what I've seen) as a sign Tino is still beloved, and the angry fanatics as a sign the evil, awful Greeks are brutes who trample all over human rights.

[Oxynia]

Notice how they tend to ignore the majority in the middle who just shrug their shoulders and move on? That's the real consensus. It's not difficult to measure at all.

My husband's family left Greece when he was still a baby as a result of the coup and the endless political mayhem that followed. They moved to England, which is why my husband sounds more like a pommy Brit than he does a proper Greek. It was a traumatic upheaval for them and it took ages to settle in their new life away from home. So it should come as no surprise that my extended family's impression of Tino (including those his age) is something I cannot repeat in polite conversation.

[Deleted]

What is the consenus on George II and Alexander?

[Mouse]

oxynia said:

Notice how they tend to ignore the majority in the middle who just shrug their shoulders and move on? That's the real consensus. It's not difficult to measure at all.

My husband's family left Greece when he was still a baby as a result of the coup and the endless political mayhem that followed. They moved to England, which is why my husband sounds more like a pommy Brit than he does a proper Greek. It was a traumatic upheaval for them and it took ages to settle in their new life away from home. So it should come as no surprise that my extended family's impression of Tino (including those his age) is something I cannot repeat in polite conversation.

Is it true that Constantine once called a left-wing political party a "miasma"? What's the story behind that?

[Deleted]

greenbunny said:

I read Queen Frederika's autobiogaphy 2 years ago while I was at the mid town public NYPL you can't check it out but have to read it there It's on the 4th fl. She glosses over a number of events but speaks of her children how Sohia got stuck with her name and warning Constantine not to make his "win" of the Olympic Sailing event the huge deal of his life.

I would have thought that Sophie was named after her paternal grandmother?

[Oxynia]

guinastasia said:

What is the consenus on George II and Alexander?

Alexander is more of a romanticized king than one admired or respected for his leadership. He had spent very little time on the throne (I think only about 3 years, IIRC) and he was literally the puppet of Venizélos (then Prime Minister). Venizélos is considered the greatest, most commanding statesman in modern Greek history...the airport in Athens is named for him. Alexander basically did what he was told to do and mostly was a semi-visible background figure rubber-stamping whatever Venizélos wanted of him.

But the way Greeks today think of him is not because of politics but because of his love story with Aspasia and how he chose a Greek girl over a foreign princess. That’s the way to win the hearts of Greeks, and his early and bizarrely random death only made him more of a sad and tragic figure worthy of Homer. You'll hear Greeks pity him and call him "to kaïménos", which means "poor guy".

His brother George II, on the other hand, has a more complex and controversial legacy because A/ he spent nearly as much time in exile as he did in Greece, and B/ his image is inextricably linked to Metaxas, the PM that he installed in the 30s. How one thinks of him is entirely related to how one thinks of Metaxas so unfortunately I have to make a bigger detour into politics here.

Metaxas was PM at the start of WWII. He successfully stood down Mussolini, who wanted access to key strategic parts of Greece and said he would go to war with Greece if Metaxas denied this access. There is a national holiday on 28 October called “Oxi Day” (Oxi being Greek for No) which celebrates the moment he told Mussolini to go stuff himself.

He successfully kept the Italians at bay until his death. But at the same time, Metaxas himself had fascist leanings and established an authoritarian rule more similar to Franco, non-violent but completely intolerant of dissention. He was trying to contain all the fragmented political opinions of the country and did it by handcuffing anyone who disagreed with him, thus becoming an autocrat.

So if you hail him as a war hero for keeping Mussolini out of Greece for as long as he did, then you’ll likely think George was a good and patriotic king for installing such a strong defender of the country. But if you think Metaxas was a brutal tyrant, you will abhor George for giving him the job.

Most people at the time chose the latter but attitudes have since softened, especially where Metaxas is concerned. He's gotten more likeable the longer he's been dead. People have lightened up a bit on George as well, but his reign did end with a referendum on the future of the monarchy and that should tell you something.

Is it true that Constantine once called a left-wing political party a "miasma"? What's the story behind that?

I think he wrote about Communism in Greece as a miasma, how Greek Communists do not embrace the ideals that made them Greek in the first place. I don't know all of the details.

[Deleted]

Ah, figures. (Considering too that George married Elisabetha of Roumania-now THERE was a real B-I-T-C-H!)

And Constantine I? (Sorry I keep adding them on).