Doctor Who

[laconicchick]

It's clear that he's been alive quite a long time, because we had the flashback in the fairy episode about 1908, and on Doctor Who he'd only been around in World War II.

But I thought he was a former Time Agent from the 51st century. However, I have no idea what Time Agents do.

My suspicion is he's been back on earth at this approximate era for a long time, so he's cranky because he's old and lonely and can't bloody die, and abandoned by the people who changed his life. Poor Jack.

How insightful -- and probably accurate.

Wouldn't it? We'd want them making out all episode, every episode.

Hmm.... I've changed my mind. I want Tennant on Torchwood so that can happen, since it never would on Doctor Who, but I bet it could on Torchwood!

In my ideal world, partly inspired by you, there's a massive crossover in which Rose comes through the rift, big reunion with Jack, then she can call the Doctor on her phone (because don't tell me she'd ever throw that out) and he can come back and deal with some crazy enemy that Torchwood are trying to cope with and they'll all be together and come to some kind of peace, and then Jack can decide to stay with Torchwood, and the Doctor and Rose can head off into space again.

If I hate Martha I'm going to pretend that is what is happening instead. At least we still have the hot Doctor.

Hah, the John Pertwee Doctor is on the TV at the moment, and the boy is all happy about it. I'm like, dude, that guy is not sexy at all. Gimme back Tennant.

Yes... I'm a bit ashamed (I feel I should like it on an intellectual level or something), but I'm not going to pretend my interest in Doctor Who isn't largely motivated by the sexiness of David Tennant (well, and my incurable 'shipping tendencies). I think, aesthetics aside (since I will always prefer a Tennant type over an Eccleston type), the 10th Doctor's facial expressions and enthusiasm and I don't know, some other quality are what make him so much more endearing and lovely. Well, that and his devotion to Rose (not that the 9th Doctor didn't have that with "Rose? I'm coming to get you"). I love love love the scene in "The Idiot's Lantern" when he realizes the Wire took her face and then they left her in the street. Aw.

Basically I could talk about this all day.

[Deleted]

But I thought he was a former Time Agent from the 51st century. However, I have no idea what Time Agents do.

Yeah, what that meant was kind of unclear. And I'm not sure why he would be working for the British Army in India (which is what the 1908 flashback looked like) as a Time Agent. He looked like he was actually IN the Army, and connected to the men who were with him - hence the upset when the fairies killed them. The conclusion I drew was that he'd landed at some point in considerably before he was actually able to be involved in Torchwood, and had to have some kind of life. And since he clearly knew the armed forces of some description, that's what he went for.

I want Tennant on Torchwood so that can happen, since it never would on Doctor Who, but I bet it could on Torchwood!

Heheh. We should start a write-in campaign: Tennant on Torchwood!

I'm a bit ashamed (I feel I should like it on an intellectual level or something), but I'm not going to pretend my interest in Doctor Who isn't largely motivated by the sexiness of David Tennant (well, and my incurable 'shipping tendencies).

Oh, completely. Same for Eccleston, in fact. Despite the fact that my fiance is a long-time Doctor Who fan (I knitted him the scarf that Tom Baker had!), I am definitely swayed by the attractiveness of the current Doctor(s).

[laconicchick]

Yeah, what that meant was kind of unclear. And I'm not sure why he would be working for the British Army in India (which is what the 1908 flashback looked like) as a Time Agent. He looked like he was actually IN the Army, and connected to the men who were with him - hence the upset when the fairies killed them. The conclusion I drew was that he'd landed at some point in considerably before he was actually able to be involved in Torchwood, and had to have some kind of life. And since he clearly knew the armed forces of some description, that's what he went for.

Okay, that makes sense... But then what happened when the '40s rolled around? Would there have been two Jacks at once? One from before he met the Doctor, when he was in the army or whatever he was doing when he saved Rose, and one from after he came back from the future and had to go through the 20th century again? (Mmm, two Jacks.) But then why is he still wearing his coat from the Second World War (and how did he get that back again? I can't remember what happened to it... I don't think it was in the defabricated clothes) if he hadn't gone straight from the war to the Gamestation (satellite) to now (Torchwood)? I guess he would have held on to it for sentimental value -- but why that as opposed to everything else? Maybe because that's what he was wearing when he met his looooovers Rose and the Doctor.

You made a good point about the old lady, as well. It doesn't seem like he had known her when he was with Rose and the Doctor. Maybe he keeps the coat because of sentimental value relating to her? Nah, I like the Rose/Doctor theory better.

I was thinking that maybe the '40s-Jack that Rose and the Doctor met was still the same Jack that had been there in 1908 (taking the "slow path," like the Doctor was talking about in "The Girl in the Fireplace"), but then he would have already been to the Gamestation, so it would be like a loop, and then my brain starts to hurt.

And I still want to know how he knew that was the Doctor's hand that fell from the sky. Hey, maybe he bought it from a collector or something! A collector of what, I'm not sure.

[Deleted]

Would there have been two Jacks at once? One from before he met the Doctor, when he was in the army or whatever he was doing when he saved Rose, and one from after he came back from the future and had to go through the 20th century again?

You know, I'm not sure. If he was stuck taking that route, then I guess there would have been two of him. There has been more than one Doctor on more than one occasion - five, once! So there's no reason there couldn't have been two Captain Jacks during WWII.

As for his coat, although I imagine that it's just part of his look that they decided to stick with because it's pretty cool, if he had to live through WWII a second time, there's no particular reason he couldn't have picked a coat up then - knowing that it really suited him. He does have a good appreciation for what makes him look hot!

I have a feeling that he's on a separate time track at this point, it's just that it covers some of the same historical ground that he previously interacted with. I think he's been waiting for this time. He knew that things were going to start happening, after all. He was obviously in place at Torchwood when the whole Cybermen/Dalek thing went down.

But I don't think that the Jack that Rose and the Doctor met was on the same time track as our current Jack, because his character is significantly altered at this point, and I think that's as a direct result of his interaction with Rose, the Doctor and the TARDIS. Even from the time we met him in The Empty Child to the point at which he's killed/resurrected, you can see the impact that the Doctor has had on him. I don't think he would have been able to go back to being the conman he was before that.

Don't know how he knew it was the Doctor's hand, but hopefully we'll find out! I have to watch some of these episodes again, because I'm forgetting the details of things.

Damn, we and Captain Jack have completely hijacked this thread, laconicchick!

[laconicchick]

Damn, we and Captain Jack have completely hijacked this thread, laconicchick!

Well given his considerable hotness, I think that's understandable. And it's not like the thread is bustling with activity! I was wondering if we should have a separate thread for Torchwood, but I don't think it would make sense as this one is pretty dead usually anyway.

But back to Doctor Who for a second... If I should be spoiler-tagging this, someone let me know. So at the end of Doomsday when they're talking on the beach (sob), and Rose talks about the baby, the Doctor says sort of wondrously, "You're not....?" But my question is, if he thought it was her, who the crap did he think the father was? I don't think he would have looked that -- happy's not the word, but you know what I mean -- if he thought it was Mickey, or if he thought she had met some random other dude.

So my conclusion is that they were totally doing it and I don't care what the writers say.

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Hee, yes. Captain Jack deserves it.

But my question is, if he thought it was her, who the crap did he think the father was? I don't think he would have looked that -- happy's not the word, but you know what I mean -- if he thought it was Mickey, or if he thought she had met some random other dude.

So my conclusion is that they were totally doing it and I don't care what the writers say.

I'll have to watch it again and take very careful note of his expression. Have the writers actually said anything that firm, one way or the other? I saw a Mastermind clip with Christopher Eccleston and this kid asked him if the Doctor fancied Rose and he said, "Absolutely!" I think they were a couple off-screen. But that sort of came secondary to their partnership, if you know what I mean. It's an absolutely fabulous and fascinating relationship.

It's interesting, I wonder if they downplayed the romance (or, you know, non-played it), because, steretypically, romance alters the way men and women interact. The Doctor and Rose had a very dangerous lifestyle, and most romantic tradition would dictate that he wouldn't "let" her carry on living that way if he'd been romantically involved with her. He would have been more protective if they'd established that on-screen. I mean, okay, they probably also wanted to avoid it become a show about a romantic relationship - those things tend to take over shows, so I get that, and a lot of kids are watching - but I kind of wonder how much of the respect he has for her would have been diffused, or how much people would have expected it to be diffused, if they'd written the Doctor and Rose as a couple rather than partners.

It shouldn't, because I think they have an amazing relationship, especially if they're a couple. And it's not that I think romantic relationships can't have that kind of respect. I think they should have it. But a partnership of true equals is quite a challenging notion of a romantic relationship even these days and I kind of wonder if they left out the romantic possibility in part because they thought it would make the partnership more unequal. Sort of like how Mulder and Scully never really hooked up, and they waffled on a lot about the value of their friendship - which was great - but there was kind of a subtext there that if they were a couple, their partnership couldn't be the same.

[laconicchick]

I know they have said that the Doctor and Rose do love each other (and that much is obvious anyway), but I could have sworn something I watched recently talked about platonic love. I thought it was the Doctor Who Confidential for "School Reunion," but I can't find it in there and I am supposed to be doing stupid work at the moment. I could also be making things up... It is late.

Your thoughts are interesting. I will contemplate them, as I can't think of a proper response now. I do think the potential of a relationship is often more interesting than the actuality of one on TV, so there's that as well. And don't forget Mulder and Scully did have that stupid baby together (of course, I was a diehard shipper for that show as well... but in my defence I was 14 then -- I have no such excuse now).

I want to watch all the Doctor Who Confidentials to see what the writers, actors, etc. have to say in them, but that won't happen until Thursday at the earliest, since I have so much work to do before then. But I'm sure I'll have some more semi-insightful comments soon enough.

Also, what about Mickey? I wonder at what point they were no longer a couple. It's clear from the beginning that Rose favours the Doctor over him, but would she carry on a relationship with the Doctor while leading Mickey on? And what about her protestations that they're not a couple (I think she says at one point, "Why does everyone assume we're a couple?!" but I could be inventing things)? There is lots to discuss.

[laconicchick]

I know this is a double post, but that was five days ago, so hopefully it's okay.

I'm so sold on Torchwood. I just like it so much that I don't care about its flaws (for example, today's episode was sort of... slow). But I am so into Gwen/Owen. I feel like I shouldn't be, but I don't care. I'm easy to please. This show is like all the times you wished something could happen on another show (*cough*DoctorWho*cough*) and it didn't, but on Torchwood it does! I'm easy to win over with sex on TV.

I was rewatching bits of "The Doctor Dances" and "Boom Town" (you can guess which bits) and I think Rose, Jack and the Doctor must have been close. They weren't in many episodes together, but all that time, alone in the TARDIS... I don't even necessarily mean close in a sexy way (although of course that would be awesome), but yeah, I can see why Jack would keep the Doctor's hand in a jar.

I also rewatched the bit in "The Satan Pit" where he goes on (and on and on) and then says that if he believes in one thing, he believes in Rose... sigh. They are just so sweet. And I have been watching some of the Doctor Who Confidentials and everyone is going on about their love (the Doctor and Rose), and John Barrowman talks about the kiss in "The Parting of the Ways" and how the Doctor has wanted to do that for the entire series, and everything is just so delightful.

Again, I feel like I should like it on a deeper level, but... Give me a good relationship on a show and I am happy. Plus, of course, there's David Tennant.

[Deleted]

I'm sorry I abandoned you, laconicchick!

Where are you up to on Torchwood now? The Gwen/Owen stuff in the episode with the cannibal village (the name of which I can't recall, alas) is scary hot, but there wasn't so much of it in last night's episode, which was mostly about Tosh. But there should be more. They have excellent chemistry. However, I do want her to break up with Rhys, because cheating characters tend to lose my sympathy fairly quickly.

I am getting desperate for them to fill us in on Jack's back story. There's been all these creepy hints, and no details, and I WANT THEM DAMNIT.

Yeah, I think Rose, the Doctor and Jack were very close. Obviously, the primary relationship is Rose and the Doctor, and they were quite able to go on without Jack, but there's a massive difference between the way the three of them are together and the way the other combinations - Rose/Doctor/Mickey, or Rose/Doctor/That Supposed Genius Whose Name I Can't Remember - are. There's a genuine partnership going on there, and that's great to see. I'm not surprised at all that Jack is obsessing over it, more than a bit.

I think there are a lot of levels you can like both these shows on, but there's nothing wrong with appreciating complex, interesting and lovely relationships. It's quite rare that you see relationships on TV that aren't both fairly shallow and fairly angst filled! Relationships between people who love each other without reserve and trust each other absolutely, whether they're shagging behind the scenes or not, are just as interesting to watch, and much more satisfying somehow. Like, I was sad when Angel left Buffy, because she was sad, but it was right that he did it; whereas I was shattered when Rose and the Doctor got split up because their relationship was such a satisfying and deep one and the idea of either of them having to live without the other one was unspeakably painful.

[laconicchick]

Well, I'm glad I'm at least not just talking to myself! ;D I am totally caught up on Torchwood and I enjoyed the Gwen/Owen bits (you know, in their thoughts) in "Greeks Bearing Gifts" because I like them together, but I agree with you -- I hope she breaks up with Rhys soon because it's just cruel to keep on like that. He seems like a nice enough guy. Also, I may have watched the "Countrycide" bits a few times. *cough* But they are just so good together.

Regarding Jack's background, I got some hope from this article (interview with John Barrowman; he talks about being in series 3 of Doctor Who but that there will never be a true crossover) and this list of BBC program information (particularly the episode entitled "Captain Jack Harkness"). Obviously both of those links will contain spoilers for things that haven't aired yet (which is why I spoilered the title too.*

I haven't seen Doctor Who in order -- I watched "The Long Game" first, then series (it sounds so weird to say that but I guess it is the correct term for a British show) 2 (and I think I watched "The Army of Ghosts" and "Doomsday" before I watched some of the other episodes), and then series 1. So I am itching to watch them in order, and I plan to do so over the Christmas break.

I'm looking forward to the Christmas episode, but I am not looking forward to the lack of Rose. Boo.

*(I guess I don't need spoiler tags for other things even though they haven't aired in North America because the official board policy is "Never use "spoilers" for t.v. shows" [directly copied and pasted]... but it feels sort of odd not using them. Anyone?)