Royalty in History

[Deleted]

There's been speculation, but then if you look at the Duke of Kent, Victoria's father, she looked a lot like him.

I just finished Born to Rule: Five Reigning Consorts, Granddaughters of Queen Victoria by Julia P. Gelardi. I highly reccomend it. It follows the lives of Queen Sophie of Greece (nee Germany), Tsarina Alexandra of Russia, Queen Ena of Spain (nee Battenberg), Queen Maud of Norway (nee Great Britain) and my personal favorite, Queen Marie of Roumania.

[Deleted]

Wasn't there recent evidence unearthed about a high level of mercury in George III's hair? That would have accounted for the periods of "madness."

Despite being born English, I never got into the whole monarchy / aristocracy thing. My take on the whole lot of them is, the only reason they are where they are now is because 400-500 hundred years ago their ancestors were greedier a-holes than anyone else.

They do make good objets du snark, though.

[Deleted]

I thought the mercury content was found in Ivan the Terrible? George III suffered from porphyria, which accounts for the madness.

[kafka]

Bumping this up to continue the Henry VIII conversation in a more appropriate place.

KarenK, Thank you for a great discussion on Henry. And you're so right about that miniseries with Ray Winstone. What in God's name were they thinking to come up with half the things they did? And Henry VIII with a cockney accent?!

BTW, have you ever read the massive Margaret George novel on Henry VIII? It's presented as his "autobiography" by his fool, "Will Somers." Fascinating read, especially if you're into Tudor history.

[Peggy Lane]

Now that I actually did read when I was still in high school. That might be where I crafted my slightly wrongheaded opinion of Henry, because while I've read a good number of books on his wives and his daughters, that's the only Henry book I've ever read.

[kafka]

It's a fascinating idea and quite novel but for all the book's obvious research, it's still a novel. Nothing wrong with that, there are some novels that are far better than history books, imo. For example, Collough McCullough's First Man in Rome series taught me more than half the painfully dry, excuciating Michael Grant books on the subject. (And he's considered to be one of the top experts in classical history.)

PeggyLane, you mentioned that Henry VIII wasn't your area, (not mine, either, btw), so I was wondering what epoch or period you really liked. I'm a sucker for history and it's so nice to find others who share my love for it.

[Peggy Lane]

American history. I can make people's eyes glaze why I hold forth on how the failure of Reconstruction set American on a course of extreme racial disparity and rural poverty. Get me going on how it's the South's vision of America that won out and is the reason that America has its current political and cultural climate and I can talk for hours.

However, I am a whore and read just about everything. Colleen McCollough is TOTALLY where I learned my Roman history. Which, btw, when I was working on my Classics minor in school I actually knew more than some of the students who were years more advanced than me, because who could hold Grant's prose in their head? I finally admitted than historical fiction is why I could write essays that included arcane bits of information. I know you like Royal Household history, but is this your epoch?

[kafka]

peggylane said:

American history. I can make people's eyes glaze why I hold forth on how the failure of Reconstruction set American on a course of extreme racial disparity and rural poverty. Get me going on how it's the South's vision of America that won out and is the reason that America has its current political and cultural climate and I can talk for hours.

Hee! I love that and I think you're so cool for it. I'm also happy someone else here is passionate about history in general, not just royal history. BTW, shall I make you totally green and tell you that Gordon Wood was a professor at my university? Never took a class from him (American history isn't my thing) but I'd have liked to. I think he was away for a big chunk of time, either doing research, a book or on sabbatical. So, while he focuses more on the Revolutionary era, he's the closest I've come to famous American historians.

However, I am a whore and read just about everything. Colleen McCollough is TOTALLY where I learned my Roman history. Which, btw, when I was working on my Classics minor in school I actually knew more than some of the students who were years more advanced than me, because who could hold Grant's prose in their head? I finally admitted than historical fiction is why I could write essays that included arcane bits of information. I know you like Royal Household history, but is this your epoch?

Grant is just .... painful. I can't believe he's so famous given how badly he writes. My father has always been obsessed with Alexander the Great, so I got him Grant's book. My father, who reads about 2 historical biographies a week and always finished a book, gave up half way! Colleen McCullough is a thousand times better, fiction or not!

As for my epoch, it's..... well, who knows. When I was in university, I doubled my major requirements in history, and that's not counting all the classics courses which were essentially history as well. Theoretically, my area of expertise is the Nazis. Specifically the SS which is what I wrote my thesis on. After that totalitarianism in general. But it's been years since I really dealt with either in any way, so I guess my most current area of knowledge is the Japanese IHA and Japanese political history.

I've always been more interested in political history than royal history. But when the two converge, it can be fascinating, especially if there is a lot of pathos and tragedy.

[Mouse]

guinastasia said:

There's been speculation, but then if you look at the Duke of Kent, Victoria's father, she looked a lot like him.

After Victoria became queen, someone called her le roi George en petticoats, meaning that she was the spitting image of her granddad, George III. King George in drag. Nice.

I just finished Born to Rule: Five Reigning Consorts, Granddaughters of Queen Victoria by Julia P. Gelardi. I highly reccomend it. It follows the lives of Queen Sophie of Greece (nee Germany), Tsarina Alexandra of Russia, Queen Ena of Spain (nee Battenberg), Queen Maud of Norway (nee Great Britain) and my personal favorite, Queen Marie of Roumania.

Marie seems to be a real character, but I don't know if there are any good biographies of her. I'll keep that book you mentioned in mind.

I've seen photos of Maud--she was incredibly beautiful.

[Karen]

kafka said:

KarenK, Thank you for a great discussion on Henry. And you're so right about that miniseries with Ray Winstone. What in God's name were they thinking to come up with half the things they did? And Henry VIII with a cockney accent?!

BTW, have you ever read the massive Margaret George novel on Henry VIII? It's presented as his "autobiography" by his fool, "Will Somers." Fascinating read, especially if you're into Tudor history.

Maybe there could be a royal movies/TV series thread, where all the various Elizabeths and such could be discussed? A lot of people will see Coppola's Marie Antoinette, but how many remember (and can join the whining) about Winstone's Henry? A shared thread might encourage more regular discussion than threads in TV for every miniseries. Of course the big ones, like Coppola's film, will end up with their own threads, but having one that's more general and all-inclusive might be handy.

The accent seemed to get mentioned fairly regularly by reviewers, but there are also so many other things to complain about when it comes to that miniseries.

I haven't read the novel, I'm sure the subgenre has a name but I can't think of it at the moment. I'm a bit wary of those books in general. What if the character is clearly biased and presents as truth some things I disagree with but which even a sympathetic biographer would have to discuss with a certain neutrality? I see Philippa Gregory mentioned relatively often, so maybe the type is getting more popular.

So, Henry discussion. Kind of an obvious remark, but it really is sad how his reign started with so much promise yet he ended up being remembered for his wives (though he brought about a huge change with the Reformation, it's probably not as prominent in public imagination). And the women themselves are just the "divorced, beheaded, died, divorced, beheaded, survived" litany, not individuals (though it's marvelously catchy, I admit).

Kafka, you're a history grad? I feel a bit guilty: I started university with the full intention of taking history courses, but I've been so busy with other subjects, I just haven't had the time. All my knowledge, such as it is, is based on what I've read in biographies.