Royalty in History

[Peggy Lane]

I would be all about a Royal Miniseries/Movie thread. The amount of time I've spent watching those are time, I'm sure, I could have spent doing more useful things. But how else would I know the Phillip was a whorebag?

BTW, shall I make you totally green and tell you that Gordon Wood was a professor at my university?

I am GREEN. I'm actually looking up at his book right now, on my Revolutionary-era America bookshelf. Ahem. And, now I know where you did undergrad!

KarenK, Margaret George is pretty good, but I always get to a point with her where I'm like "Okay. I get it. Shut up." Usually this happens on page 1673 or so. There's a biography by Alison Weir about the wives that's pretty good, and it's written for actual humans and not just historians. There's a decent biography I read of "Survived" but I can't recall the name, I'll look later and see if I can find it.

[Daisy Pusher]

chatchien said:

And I always thought that it was very interesting that the mad disease of porphyria that George III had has never showed up downline in any of his supposed descendents.

Porphyria did in fact show up again. QV's eldest granddaughter, Charlotte (Vicky's daughter), and her daughter Feodora were both apparent porphyria sufferers. Feo was an only child and herself died childless.

Someone was asking about whether there was a biography of Queen Marie of Roumania? There is--Hannah Pakula wrote The Last Romantic, which is in fact a quite detailed bio, although it was written in the late 70s/early 80s. I don't know whether Ceaucescu's fall and the demise of the Communist Bloc would have opened up any previously off-limits archival information. Marie was quite the fascinating character (and didn't she know it!)

[kafka]

karenk said:

Maybe there could be a royal movies/TV series thread, where all the various Elizabeths and such could be discussed? A lot of people will see Coppola's Marie Antoinette, but how many remember (and can join the whining) about Winstone's Henry? A shared thread might encourage more regular discussion than threads in TV for every miniseries. Of course the big ones, like Coppola's film, will end up with their own threads, but having one that's more general and all-inclusive might be handy.

KarenK, I'd love a thread like that because I can never inspire anyone with my British TV thread and it seems the British/PBS do a good portion of these sorts of films/miniseries. I'd particularly like a discussion of the various Elizabeths, comparing Glenda Jackson's Queen to Helen Mirren's, and so forth. And oooooh, there are all the representations of Charles II in history, not to mention the Romanovs, the Duke of Windsor/exPoW, and Queen Victoria (whom I despise).

The accent seemed to get mentioned fairly regularly by reviewers, but there are also so many other things to complain about when it comes to that miniseries.

I stopped watching it after the episode regarding Anne Boleyn. I just couldn't handle it anymore, and that says a lot for me since I lap up these sorts of things.

So, Henry discussion. Kind of an obvious remark, but it really is sad how his reign started with so much promise yet he ended up being remembered for his wives (though he brought about a huge change with the Reformation, it's probably not as prominent in public imagination). And the women themselves are just the "divorced, beheaded, died, divorced, beheaded, survived" litany, not individuals (though it's marvelously catchy, I admit).

Someone once said that the best fruit of Henry's life and reign was Elizabeth, the one glorious Queen. Personally, I think that's simplifying things too much. The fact that he solidified the Tudor position past Henry VII's tenure, ensured no further continuation of the old rifts which threatened to divide England was no small matter. Unfortunately, by creating the Church of England, he created new rifts which continued down to the 1700s and the rule regarding Sophia, the Electress of Hanover.

Kafka, you're a history grad? I feel a bit guilty: I started university with the full intention of taking history courses, but I've been so busy with other subjects, I just haven't had the time. All my knowledge, such as it is, is based on what I've read in biographies.

Actually, you make *me* feel rather guilty for having abandoned all this so long ago.

peggylane said:

I would be all about a Royal Miniseries/Movie thread. The amount of time I've spent watching those are time, I'm sure, I could have spent doing more useful things. But how else would I know the Phillip was a whorebag?

Peggy, which Philip? Philip II of Spain or the Duke of Edinburgh?

I am GREEN. I'm actually looking up at his book right now, on my Revolutionary-era America bookshelf. Ahem. And, now I know where you did undergrad!

Heh.

Usually this happens on page 1673 or so. There's a biography by Alison Weir about the wives that's pretty good, and it's written for actual humans and not just historians. There's a decent biography I read of "Survived" but I can't recall the name, I'll look later and see if I can find it.

Gawd, that comment about page 1673 is so true about George's books. One could use them as doorstops or a weapon to cause serious bodily injury. That said, her book on Cleopatra is one of my favorite things to read. Just LOVE anything to do with Cleopatra. As for the Alison Weir book, are you thinking of the Six Wives of Henry VIII, not to be confused by the Antonia Fraser book of the same name?

Speaking of Alison Weir, anyone read her book on Richard III, The Princes in the Tower? I have to say, I'm not convinced by her argument that he killed the two boys. I'm not a Ricardist apologist but I think much of the image we have of him today is the result of post-Richard Tudor propaganda. One or two writers in particular, not to mention Shakespeare. The facts make me lean more toward a henchman of Richard doing so on his own initiative to score points, if not Henry VII himself. Most likely Henry VII. What do you guys think?

[Peggy Lane]

Queen Victoria (whom I despise)

Oh...Why? The only bio I've read of her was very sympathetic and dealt with her marriage to Albert.

I was calling Edinborough the whorebag. And yeah, Alison Weir. Whom I really enjoy, she's always my airplane book. I haven't read Princes yet (I'm saving it for a plane trip), but in general I agree with your take on Richard III. Henry VII was fairly hardboiled, I could see him do it.

[kafka]

peggylane said:

Queen Victoria (whom I despise)

Oh...Why? The only bio I've read of her was very sympathetic and dealt with her marriage to Albert.

It's hard to explain without having a huge, detailed rant but the gist of it is that she was a neurotically self-absorbed, self-centered, manipulative, petty, prima donna diva of EPIC proportions whose supposed "achievements" were really due to her husband's brilliance, temperence, tact, diplomacy and astuteness, not to mention those of some of her ministers.

Everything --- EVERY. LITTLE. THING. --- was always about her, her wants, her feelings, her needs, her endless anguish, her supposed misery, her victimisation and martyrdom. While her "beloved" Albert was alive, she made his life endlessly difficult (if not miserable) with her megrims, with imagined scenes and fits, with attempts to keep him in the shadow. Everyone had to be the planet revolving around her sun. Including Albert. That is, until he died, when he became useful as yet another thing to make herself the center of attention through her supposed great tragedy. Yes, she loved him, but she loved attention more.

Probably more damning to me, she was a completely awful, selfish, rotten mother. She completely messed up her son. She sacrificed the life and joy of one of her daughters (by preventing her from getting married) solely so she could have a familial dame d'honneur of sorts to wait on her hand and foot for all her demands. She was routinely emotionally callous, if not sometimes emotionally abusive.

If you've ever read any of her letters, especially to Vicky when she became CP of Prussia, you'd be amazed by the degree of her obsessive, neurotic narcissism. It's jaw-droppingly incredible. I think the letters were what really cemented my already vehement dislike and my belief that she was over-hyped, her actions whitewashed and her personality utterly loathsome.

I have two friends who have read the letters and still like her. However, it seems to me that, for them, it's mostly because she's a representation of things. Both are gay and have admitted that she's like a royal version of Joan Crawford to them, an icon who is liked partially because she *was* a shrill, extreme diva. But even they have to admit that close scrutiny shines a negative light on her character and actions.

I know my opinion is an extremely unpopular minority one and that the majority of people adore, if not worship, Queen Victoria. But nothing will ever convince me that she hasn't been white-washed and presented as a figure of greatness simply because of outside factors.

To name a few: the length of her reign; the stability created by that length; the benefits of the Industrial Revolution and its wide-spread impact; overseas expansion related to the flourishing of commerce; etc. In short, because of the achievements of others unrelated to anything she herself was solely and directly responsible for. For the most part, she reaped the indirect benefits of the age and the time. Victoria was not like Elizabeth I, an absolute monarch, who *could* be held personally responsible for decisions during her reign. Where Victoria supposedly did have personal achievements, it was really due to her husband working behind the scenes or influencing her, as well as some savvy ministers (especially once Victoria became a languishing recluse). It was Albert who kept Britain out of the American Civil War after the Trent Incident, and his tempering, wise hand was behind many other political decisions as well.

But even if none of those things are or were true, it wouldn't change how I feel. I despise and loathe Victoria for who she was a person. LOATHE. Just talking about her makes me clench my teeth in antipathy.

On that note, I'll go sit in the corner and wait for the usual Victoria fans to pelt me with rotten eggs. ;D

[Daisy Pusher]

Well, I'm not going to pelt you rotten eggs, Kafka. While I cannot say I loathe VRI, I think you make some excellent points about her character. I think she was capable of manipulation and pettiness on a monumental scale. Certainly she was a selfish, needy, self-centered mother who was more concerned about what her children would do for than what she could do for her children, but it seems like that was the norm amongst her royal contemporaries (for example, her DIL, Alexandra, was a pretty crappy mother, too). I do think her greatest strengths were her constancy and longevity.

If you've ever read any of her letters, especially to Vicky when she became CP of Prussia, you'd be amazed by the degree of her obsessive, neurotic narcissism. It's jaw-droppingly incredible. I think the letters were what really cemented my already vehement dislike and my belief that she was over-hyped, her actions whitewashed and her personality utterly loathsome.

I think VRI bears the primary responsibility for Vicky's problems with the Prussian court. She constantly railed at Vicky to stay different, to remember that she was first and foremost the daughter of the Queen of England, and to always campaign for British interests over Prussian. Hence, Vicky became alienated from the court, and was frequently the target of hostility from all around.

She sacrificed the life and joy of one of her daughters (by preventing her from getting married) solely so she could have a familial dame d'honneur of sorts to wait on her hand and foot for all her demands.

And even when she finally relented and let Beatrice marry, she still demanded that they live with her, so that Beatrice would be there to dance attendance on Dear Mama.

[kafka]

kokopelli said:

Well, I'm not going to pelt you rotten eggs, Kafka. While I cannot say I loathe VRI, I think you make some excellent points about her character.

Phew. I'm relieved. You have no idea how much I've been criticised in the past for not buying the Victoria myth or worshipping at her petty little feet.

but it seems like that was the norm amongst her royal contemporaries (for example, her DIL, Alexandra, was a pretty crappy mother, too).

I agree with that. Alix did something similar to her daughter that Victoria did with Beatrice. Mary & George V weren't such hot parents either. But I think Victoria took it to galactic proportions which have no real equivalent.

If you've ever read any of her letters, especially to Vicky when she became CP of Prussia, you'd be amazed by the degree of her obsessive, neurotic narcissism. It's jaw-droppingly incredible. I think the letters were what really cemented my already vehement dislike and my belief that she was over-hyped, her actions whitewashed and her personality utterly loathsome.

I think VRI bears the primary responsibility for Vicky's problems with the Prussian court. She constantly railed at Vicky to stay different, to remember that she was first and foremost the daughter of the Queen of England, and to always campaign for British interests over Prussian. Hence, Vicky became alienated from the court, and was frequently the target of hostility from all around.

Bingo. That is exactly what I was thinking of but I didn't want to get into all the details. I presume you've read the Daphne Bennet book on Vicky? Well, I had to stop midway because I couldn't bear to read another word about Victoria, her narcissism, superiority, or selfishness. Let alone the political ramifications of her stupidity for Vicky's life. I was almost hyperventilating from outrage and disgust. I picked it up months later, skipped over a huge section and then gave up entirely.

And even when she finally relented and let Beatrice marry, she still demanded that they live with her, so that Beatrice would be there to dance attendance on Dear Mama.

It's a miracle Beatrice ever managed to get married. I think, if she hadn't been the daughter of Victoria, she'd never have been able to marry at all at that point. The Regency and Victorian notion of "on the shelf" doomed single women an incredibly young age. But Victoria didn't care about any of that. Just about her own comfort. Ghastly woman. Absolutely ghastly. I loathe the Queen Mum too (and am not too keen on Alix Romanov either), but Victoria is in a class all by herself.

[Karen]

I know almost nothing about 19th century royals, but I did see one Victoria/Empress Frederick biography that looked pretty nice. Didn't buy it at the time but maybe I should hunt it down. A Bertie biography might also be interesting - just what did he get up to earn that playboy reputation?

My vague impression of Victoria is that she didn't do much, just sat there, mourned Albert and lived a long life while the world started changing around her.

Anyone remember Empress Elisabeth of Austria? I watched the Sissi films as a child and they really managed to make her troubled life look so sweet and charming. I agree that she was a great beauty. I'd like to read more about her family's history of mental problems - I understand that it made her rather paranoid about her own fate.

[kafka]

karenk said:

I know almost nothing about 19th century royals, but I did see one Victoria/Empress Frederick biography that looked pretty nice. Didn't buy it at the time but maybe I should hunt it down.

That's probably the Daphne Bennet one I mentioned earlier to Daisy Pusher. Get it!!!!! It's great and it will show you just why I despise Victoria with a passion. However, it will do much more and will also explain about the German/English situation, why the Kaiser (Vicky's son) was the way he was, and more. Excellent book and easy to read. (Just not for those who already hate Victoria to begin with.)

A Bertie biography might also be interesting - just what did he get up to earn that playboy reputation?

He was permanently emotionally scarred by his nasty, awful mother, he had a hard time even with his father as well, he was treated like an idiot and red-headed stepchild of no merit, and was very much unloved. So he tried to live DOWN to their lowest expectations and then, was blamed for his father's death. Something Victoria added to the list of things she never forgave him for, like the many hours of labour and the fact that she hates babies in general. (She wanted to have sex without babies and hated any result of her own sexual nature. She actually BLAMED them for it and for being born.)(Yeah, I told you she was awful!)

In any event, poor Bertie had enough emotional baggage without carrying his father's death on his conscience. It's not even as though he actually *killed* his father. Albert was ill enough from the miasma and fetid air around the castle, but he went out in the rain after Bertie had an incident with an opera dancer, got wet and caught a chill. Which his already weakened state couldn't fight off, so he died.

Poor Bertie, he actually did a few things of merit as king but he's never really given credit for them. People only think of him as the wastrel playboy prince and king (which he was on some levels), but all he was is due to his absolutely awful childhood, upbringing and parents.

Anyone remember Empress Elisabeth of Austria? I watched the Sissi films as a child and they really managed to make her troubled life look so sweet and charming. I agree that she was a great beauty. I'd like to read more about her family's history of mental problems - I understand that it made her rather paranoid about her own fate.

She was and, in a way, things turned out to warrant her paranoia. I haven't read about her in years but from what I can recall, she wasn't a good Empress, flighty, resentful and unstable. She also hated Austria and the Austrians, which was sorta problem since they were the majority of the Empire. She hated the court life, hated to go along with the game that was expected of her and, in that way, rather naive. But she also had a genuinely hard time of things, cared about the people, and went out of her way to help with those who suffered. In a way, she was like the Diana of her time, unsuited for the restrictions of court-life, popular with the masses, disliked by the established elite, and recklessly naive about political/monarchial realities.

The situation with her son, CP Rudolph, and the Mayerling scandal was pretty bad, and impacted her fragile state as well. (Among other things, it was a murder-suicide which was hushed up.) The Mayerling thing is actually really a juicy read, if you find a book on it, but it had longstanding political ramifications as well which elevate it beyond just the Dynasty-like plot. There's a good book on Sissi but I got it from the library. If you're interested, I can hunt down the name.

[Auroranorth]

In the last couple of centuries, there have been very few high-ranking royals whom I actually like. There's my longstanding fondness for Bertie, poor man, and...and...and...

Oh! The Scandinavian royals aren't awful. Not terribly interesting, but not awful. That's pretty much it, though. I'm not a Victoria fan, the Romanovs- the kids were sweet, the parents useless as far as running a country. Not hot on the Windsors, either. My interest in them dies with Bertie.