Royalty in History

[Daisy Pusher]

I loathe the Queen Mum too (and am not too keen on Alix Romanov either), but Victoria is in a class all by herself.

I am standing shoulders with you on the 'Queen Mum.' Talk about a cold, unforgiving character. It's remarkable that so many think of her as this sweet, harmless, little old granny. I suppose that's because she looked like a sweet, harmless, little old granny, with her feathery hats and her pastel outfits and her pearls. Really, though, the only thing I like about her was her conduct during WWII--the famous "East End" remark, her staunch support of the King, etc--but beyond that, she seems to me to have been a terribly unyielding, hypocritical soul. And while I hardly think that the Duke and Duchess of Windsor were spotless characters, her treatment of them really seemed to be shabby, at best.

As far as Alix Romanov, I understand what you are saying. For many years I, like others here, was a Romanov fanatic. I still am quite interested in the dynasty, although I am now more interested in the more 'peripheral' branches, such as the Konstantinovichi, for example. I still feel great sympathy for Alix because of the tragedy of her son's disease, but beyond that, she leaves me somewhat cold.

Sissi was truly beautiful, but she takes the cake when it comes to neuroses, in my books. It's that bad Wittelsbach blood.

eta: What Kafka said. By the way I'll check into the bio you mentioned of Vicky. I've read Hannah Pakula's, which I thought was interesting.

Just to follow up on EVII, rather than double-post: Karen, there are some good bios of Bertie out there. I'll be happy to dig up a suggestion or two. I know I have one at home that's not bad, but I cannot remember the name for the life of me. I think EVII's a much better king than he's generally given credit for. And he was certainly more interesting and entertaining than both his predecessor AND his successor.

[kafka]

auroranorth said:

In the last couple of centuries, there have been very few high-ranking royals whom I actually like. There's my longstanding fondness for Bertie, poor man, and...and...and...

Wow, you like Bertie too?! And I share your reaction about the "and.... um... and... and...." for everyone since then. Come sit next to Kafka and I on the "Not Impressed Sofa." You can hug him and we can chat about how most of these royals are awful and contemptible.

Oh! The Scandinavian royals aren't awful. Not terribly interesting, but not awful. That's pretty much it, though. I'm not a Victoria fan, the Romanovs- the kids were sweet, the parents useless as far as running a country. Not hot on the Windsors, either. My interest in them dies with Bertie.

I agree with almost all of that, although my interest doesn't die with Bertie. I find Edward/David, Duke of Windsor, intriguing in a really awful, contemptible, loathsome way. And not just because of Wallis Simpson either. But as a whole, I can't stand the Windsors. Harry is the best of the lot but given my views on the family as a whole, that doesn't say much. And really, don't get me started on the Queen Mum. She was a vicious, bigoted old bat and harridan. Alix Romanov? A hypochondriac, arrogant, superior, neurotic, dominating FOOL. Her husband? Weakling and moron.

The only modern royals I like are... well, you guys probably know already, but the Japanese ones. The rest, I mock, dislike and can find ample things to criticise. But my beloved Hirohito, Michiko, CP Naruhito and, especially, CPss Masako..... they can do very little wrong in my eyes. I adore the Emperor who is probably the most brilliant monarch in centuries, anywhere. And Masako... well, you already know why.

That said, I really respect and admire CPss Victoria of Sweden. I also like Lilian of Sweden, whose lifestory should be made into a movie because it's pretty remarkable and touching, imo.

The rest of the royals don't do anything for me. Juan Carlos the letcher may have kept his country together and may be a good king in some ways, but his personal character is only one step removed from his equally sleazy brother-in-law. Felipe doesn't impress me, Maxima irritates me, and Mabel is just awful. Power-hungry, ruthless, conniving, social-climbing B**** who uses powerful men then tosses them aside when it's no longer convenient. I like Matilde of Belgium but I'm wary of her extreme conservativism and Catholicism. I loathe the Opus Dei gargoyle, (ex)Queen Fabiola, and the rest of the Belgians are boring as hell. I will admit to a soft spot for Stephanie of Monaco but that's a long story.

ETA: DaisyPusher, no, it WAS the Pakula one! I'm sorry, I'm an idiot. I was thinking of Bennet because friend mentioned her name and the Vicky book to me a few days ago. I'll wait until someone else posts so I can discuss the Old Bat and Harridan (aka the Queen Mum) to you in other post. I don't want to make people's eyes glaze over my adding any more to this hugely long post! But YAY for hating her too.

[Karen]

kafka said:

Something Victoria added to the list of things she never forgave him for, like the many hours of labour and the fact that she hates babies in general. (She wanted to have sex without babies and hated any result of her own sexual nature. She actually BLAMED them for it and for being born.)(Yeah, I told you she was awful!)

Ouch. The information you've posted makes her sound so unpleasant, and not in that entertaining royal kind of way.

Poor Bertie, he actually did a few things of merit as king but he's never really given credit for them. People only think of him as the wastrel playboy prince and king (which he was on some levels), but all he was is due to his absolutely awful childhood, upbringing and parents.

Sounds sad but true. I only remember hearing about his mistresses and parties, not his actual deeds as king and his family relationships - the only common remark along those lines is that Victoria was in mourning for the rest of her life and... that's it, nothing specific about the children.

The situation with her son, CP Rudolph, and the Mayerling scandal was pretty bad, and impacted her fragile state as well. (Among other things, it was a murder-suicide which was hushed up.) The Mayerling thing is actually really a juicy read, if you find a book on it, but it had longstanding political ramifications as well which elevate it beyond just the Dynasty-like plot. There's a good book on Sissi but I got it from the library. If you're interested, I can hunt down the name.

I have the Joan Haslip bioragpy, The Lonely Empress, and if I see a Mayerling book I'll definitely be picking it up. I feel sorry for poor deluded Mary Vetsera, happy to be dying with a man who actually cared little about her, her body dressed up and taken away two days after her death in an effort to hide what had happened. The question of Rudolph's political activities and the degree to which they might have influenced his decision to commit suicide is interesting. I think it's probably still a mystery? There was a bad, boring Omar Sharif/Catherine Deneuve film that made this look like a great romance. A more accurate Mayerling film/series would be nice.

[Daisy Pusher]

I also like Lilian of Sweden, whose lifestory should be made into a movie because it's pretty remarkable and touching, imo.

I love the fact that she and Bertil hung in there all those years.

Anyway, I'm trying to think of historic royals I do find to be interesting (in a good way....) Queen Olga of Greece? Victoria Milford Haven (probably my favorite)? Her awesome daughter, Queen Louise of Sweden?

[Peggy Lane]

Something Victoria added to the list of things she never forgave him for, like the many hours of labour and the fact that she hates babies in general. (She wanted to have sex without babies and hated any result of her own sexual nature. She actually BLAMED them for it and for being born.)(Yeah, I told you she was awful!)

Oh, I actually read this in a book about Victorian sexual practices. You know, it is unforgivable to blame your kid because labor sucks. But wanting to have sex without constantly being pregnant? I felt for her there. Albert couldn't look at her without knocking her up, and she obviously relished their sex life. It's just she was sort of optionless for being able to have her sex life and not be a brood mare. Thanks to this thread, I'm going to be spending my summer with my nose in various biographies.

As for her granddaughter Alix, I can't really work up much but pity for her, either. She was a godawful wife for a ruler (and especially one that needed a good dose of backbone), but whenever I read about her, even when reading the most unsympathetic biographies, she always seems to be trying and like she loved the people in her life.

And for Queen Mary, little Princess May gets my sympathy. Nothing like being the poor royal that's going to be sacrificed to keep the image of the hemiophiliac Crown Prince up! And then, when he died, being flipped to the little brother. However, she was another godawful mother. It's not wonder her sons turned out so lovely.

The Duke of Windsor and his grubby little American fascinate me. If it wasn't for Wallace, I'd swear on Bibles that I think he's gay, and I'm not sure that Wallace just wasn't a conveinant out.

ETA- I think that the Queen Mum performed brilliantly during WWII. I also think that her husband couldn't have ruled without her. However, I also think she was a raving bitch, and not in the good way. Margaret is someone I can actually work up a little sympathy for, because dear god her family did enjoy ripping her to shreds. Did we learn nothing from the Wallace mess?

[Daisy Pusher]

[quote

And for Queen Mary, little Princess May gets my sympathy. Nothing like being the poor royal that's going to be sacrificed to keep the image of the hemiophiliac Crown Prince up! And then, when he died, being flipped to the little brother. However, she was another godawful mother. It's not wonder her sons turned out so lovely.

See, here I go again. I don't feel sorry for her at all. She was, well, let's face it, a politically insignificant princess from a morganatic branch of the Wuerttembergs, whose parents were in debt to their royal eyeballs. She did GREAT for herself! Marriage to the heir to the British throne. Little May pulled off a coup. I doubt she shed too many tears for Eddy (ugh) once she realized the brass ring was still hers (not to mention the jewels). Plus, there was precedent for marrying the fiancee off to the next in line--same thing happened to Dagmar of Denmark after her fiancee died.

edited to add: I must sound terrible! I hate 'em all! ;D

[kafka]

kokopelli said:

I also like Lilian of Sweden, whose lifestory should be made into a movie because it's pretty remarkable and touching, imo.

I love the fact that she and Bertil hung in there all those years.

I agree. For those who may not know anything about her, one of my best friends (the one who forgives Queen Victoria, heh) wrote a piece about her for a royalty board/newsgroup. She had a fascinating life and I urge some of you to check out this article.

Anyway, I'm trying to think of historic royals I do find to be interesting (in a good way....) Queen Olga of Greece? Victoria Milford Haven (probably my favorite)? Her awesome daughter, Queen Louise of Sweden?

I agree on the Victoria Milford Haven but I don't know enough about the other two to have an informed view.

Sounds sad but true. I only remember hearing about his mistresses and parties, not his actual deeds as king and his family relationships - the only common remark along those lines is that Victoria was in mourning for the rest of her life and... that's it, nothing specific about the children.

KarenK, you're right, he's always overshadowed by his mother, his reputation and the fact that his reign was so short. Perhaps I just go for the underdogs but I think he was so much better than given credit for. The Anglo-French Detente and Concorde he engineered was a pretty significant historical event, given the centuries of bloodshed and rivalry between the two nations. Unfortunately, it didn't help with regard to the situation leading up to WWI and may have added to it. OTOH, to be fair, one can't blame Edward VII for the balance of power system which was in place at the time and WWI would have occurred even without the French/British alliance.

PeggyLane, you would love one of my other best friends, who writes royalty stuff for various historical journals, and who also supports Princess May for the reasons you stated. I don't agree with her but she has convinced me on one thing: Wallis Simpson. She's really changed my views about her by going beyond the unsubstantiated rumours put forth by people like Hitchens and others, as well as by having a more analytical, critical examination of Wallis' life. My friend also wrote a few interesting pieces for an online site earlier in her career about how David/Bertie, Duke of Windsor, was a Byronic hero in some ways, as well as several pieces on Wallis, her relationship with the Queen Mum, and more. I'm referencing those early articles because they're online, unlike her stuff in European Royalty-something-or-another Journal, or Royalty Digest, so I can link them here if anyone is interested.

ETA: DaisyPusher, I share your lack of sympathy. And I "hate them all" too! So come sit next to Kafka and me, and we can gossip over some grapes. (I still want to get into the Queen Mum Harridan stuff but I keep getting distracted and writing tomes on other people.)

BTW, I'm having SO much fun. It's lovely to be bantering about all this, going from royal to royal, all within one post. ESPECIALLY since there is someone who shares my hatred of some of the Windsor women, and a portion of my views on Queen Victoria. Hurrah!

[Mouse]

I know that Bertie's wife, Alix, was a pretty neurotic parent, but there are lots of aspects of her that I really admire and respect. She was almost totally deaf and lame in one leg, but she was in many respects the Diana of her era. For one thing, she started a fashion trend of high necklines and choker necklaces (though she wore them to cover a scar on her neck). Also, like Diana, she was really good with people. I believe she founded Queen Alexandra's Royal Nursing Corps. While she may have been selfish and not a good parent, she seems to have had a good heart. I've read that she let Bertie's mistress, Alice Keppel, visit him on his deathbed.

The Windsors aren't all bad news. I have respect for the Duke and Duchess of Kent. Their marriage isn't the greatest, but they seem gracious and classy.

OTOH, I can't stand Elizabeth II. Talk about someone without an assertive bone in her body. It's like she's spent the past 50 or so years waving and shaking hands and letting other people make decisions for her. She's a horrible parent who let her awful husband bully poor Charles, and she did nothing to intervene when it was clear that all the attempts to make the boy a "man's man" were backfiring miserably. Someone once said Phillip was "an absolute s---" to his sons, but if Elizabeth had any objections to this, she kept them hidden.

And no, her royal responsibilities are not an excuse. She herself grew up in a close, loving household.

She's clueless when it comes to addressing the fact that her country isn't the cozy Edwardian enclave it was in her mother's time. As of 10 years ago, there were no nonwhites on staff at Buckingham palace, even though Britain has a lot of immigrants from India, Pakistan, and the West Indies.

She stood aside as her younger sister was denied a chance with the love of her life. She allowed her son to be pressured into an unsuitable marriage all because he was "supposed" to produce an heir. Why? The succession was taken care of. She had no problem with Diana being turned into a brood mare, even when it was clear she was a bad fit for that family.

And what great examples her kids are. Three are divorced, one is a failed businessman, and all seem to have an icky sense of entitlement. Apparently they were never taught that honor should be earned.

You look at the Windsors' current dysfunctions, and, well...some of the blame has to rest somewhere. Maybe with a monarch who is great at showing up on time to cut ribbons but otherwise has no idea what's going on and doesn't care to know.

Basically, the Queen does not seem to be a particularly nice person. She has been described as "cold, shallow, personality-challenged, protocol-obsessed." An accurate description.

[Peggy Lane]

While I think that Queen Mary was an oppurtunstic shrew, I think Princess May was a kid thrown to the wolves. Yeah, she did well for herself, but if she had gotten married off to the elder brother, can you imagine what her life would of been like? I'm pretty cold blooded, and I shudder. Kafka, I would love to read your friend's writings if you have the link.

Elizabeth II I find fascinating, but I'm glad I'm not eating Christmas dinner with her. Her utter disregard for Princess Diana doesn't bother me as much as her utter disregard for her own flesh and blood. BTW, my "scholarly" thoughts on her is that she really did passionately love Philip, and after she ascended the throne she ranked her life in order of duties, Philip, and everything else. And Philip would be a hell of a man to really lose yourself in, especially when you aren't the kind of woman he finds truly attractive. Also, she might have wanted to cut the apron strings to Mummy a little earlier than her seventh decade.

(You guys! I'm loving this thread SO MUCH!)

[kafka]

mouse said:

I've read that she let Bertie's mistress, Alice Keppel, visit him on his deathbed.

Yes, she did.

The Windsors aren't all bad news. I have respect for the Duke and Duchess of Kent. Their marriage isn't the greatest, but they seem gracious and classy.

I agree, Mouse, but I don't consider them as core Windsors and when I refer to the family, I'm referring to the main group.

As for your views on Elizabeth II, I'm not a fan of hers, and agree with much of what you said. Regarding Philip, he wasn't the ideal parent, but I don't not the ogre which Charles has made him out to be in his endless, usual whining, martyrdom trips. Anne certainly doesn't think her father was bad, and there are many instances of Philip being hands on, affectionate and involved with his children's upbringing. From informal camping trips overnight with just Charles and Anne, to much more.

I don't excuse Elizabeth for her aloofness. She was that way as both a parent and as a person, something associated with her reluctance for confrontations or any unpleasantness which would require her to act decisively. However, I can understand the theoretical reason why she left the upbringing of the children to Philip. Apart from the obvious issues of logistics and time, she also wanted to make him feel as though he had some power, some function and usefulness, and that he wasn't wholly impotent. Do I approve? No. She wasn't a good parent. But I think Philip tried to be involved for the most part and he wasn't a complete catastrophe, Charles notwithstanding.

I don't know why I'm writing any of this since I really can't stand any of the modern Windsors but perhaps a part of me is trying to play Devil's Advocate, or perhaps I think Philip is a complex case, and hasn't always been in the easiest position. I guess I've mellowed in my contempt for him over the years from 100% to about 75%.

peggylane said:

Kafka, I would love to read your friend's writings if you have the link.

Gladly and happily, PeggyLane. She does extensive research for everything, she's getting some impressive acclaim as someone just starting out in the field, and I'm really proud of her. Remember though, these are things she wrote early in her career. She's moved on now to prestigious royalty journals and magazines which can't be found online.

Queen Mary, Queen Alix & their jewels

Queen Mary, a royal kleptomaniac of sorts

The Duke of Windsor as a Byronic Hero- Part I

The DoW as Byron's Romantic Hero-- Part II

Wallis Simpson and the Royal Family (esp. the Queen Mum)-- Part I

Wallis & the Royal Family (including Charles, the Kents, the Queen, & Prss Pushy)-- Part II

She has numerous other things on Wallis and why she's been unfairly mistreated by historians, not to mention stuff about her jewels, but that's probably enough for now. But, if I may boast about my friend for a minute, she's the only person who's addressed the infamous theft of the Duchess' jewels and what really happened, based on newly released archival documents (which kinda change everything). Her extensive piece on the subject was supposed to come out in the last issue of the European History and Royalty Journal (or something to that effect) but will be out in the June edition soon. And the BBC has contacted her on the subject of her piece, as well as her extensive knowledge about Wallis. They had initially planned to run a piece about how Wallis was behind the theft, but after reading her stuff, had to scrap their plans!! They're now planning to do a radio series on the theft, with her as the one and only consultant. I'm so proud of her!