New Wave Music

[kafka]

Fans of Depeche Mode, Sisters of Mercy, New Order or other groups? Want to discuss 80s New Wave or today's retro versions like The Killers, Interpol, Franz Ferdinand?

Then this is your place.

I'll start. As a few people know, I'm obsessively and fanatically into Depeche Mode but some people don't consider them true New Wave. Personally, I don't care what the label: DM rocks! And "Cause & Effect" is a close second. Partially because they sound like early Depeche Mode, only better. Alas, hardly anyone knows them.

All this weekend I was listening to Rammstein, the German group that is considered either industrial or heavy metal, but, in Germany, they're considered part of a music group that is really a mix of New Wave, Industrial-techno and more. They're like a mix between Nine Inch Nails and Sisters of Mercy. Definite 80s New Wave influence there.

What are some of your favorite New Wave groups?

[starskin]

Yaaaaaaaaaay! Thanks for opening this thread. I wonder if I can cite it in my thesis as a source?

I guess the big question, of course, is how do you define New Wave Music and who falls under the umbrella of the term? One of the things that's so weird about the split between post-punk and NW is that there's a lot of overlap. Joy Division is considered by a whole lot of people to be a post-punk band, but to me they straddle the line between that and NW. Depeche Mode, in my mind, is a New Wave band, though others might disagree.

I don't want to ramble on and on and on with the thoughts I've started to gather on my thesis*, particularly since I don't have a lot of literature to back it up---just my own ears and beliefs. But I'm dying to hear what other people think and get reccomendations on good reading on the subject.

*Yes, I am trying to get my Masters degree in New Wave Music. Yes, I am a geek.

[kafka]

I see Joy Division as post-punk and the inspiration for many of the bands today like Interpol, the Killers, etc. I see groups like New Order or Sisters of Mercy as being part of a different sound and category. To me "New Wave" is a very limiting term in some ways because --- to my very uneducated, untechnical mind --- there is a definite sound which is associated with that music. And it's a narrow group. To me, Sisters of Mercy is the perfect embodiment of New Wave, even more than New Order. (All of this is totally subjective and personal, so I'm probably wrong a thousand times over.)

To go back to what you and I were discussing in the School thread, DM isn't considered New Wave and, in many ways, I agree with that. Their sound as a whole moved from pop to New Wave to Alternative so I don't think they can be categorized as New Wave over all. Even within that narrow portion of the Violator years, I don't think they were New Wave. IMO, very, very little of their stuff fits into New Order/Sisters of Mercy sound. (I keep bringing up those two because they have the most obvious sound so they're the easiest for reference/comparison points.)

New Wave is an odd category for me because I think it's not a very good term. Early 80s "New Wave" is very different from that of the late 80s. Some people would consider Dead or Alive to be part of Early 80s New Wave, but to me, they're more alternative pop. (Much loved, but still alternative pop). Then 90s New Wave like "Cause & Effect" whose "Trip" album surpassed much of early DM and was more meaningful than most of New Order's music. Was that the impact of the 90s sentiment and mental attitude? Was it a more philosophical type of New Wave which moved away from the more pop-ish influences of the 80s? Or was it just not New Wave at all?

I have no clue, but I do know that some of the current groups who claim a New Wave influence are much more post-modern punk, imo, than NW.

[starskin]

Ah, you see, but what you're saying is the problem with NW is actually the opposite. It's not that it's a narrow genre, it's that it's such an umbrella term that groups that sound nothing like each other get lumped into the NW category. Groups as diverse as the B-52s, Blondie, New Order and Sisters of Mercy (not to mention DM and other bands) are labeled "New Wave". And the B52s sounds very very little like Sisters of Mercy (who opened for Depche in 93 for SOFAD, incidentally).
But back to what you were saying: that it's a narrow genre. What's narrow about it? Is it the instrumentation, the use of synthesizers, the lyrics...what? I hope I'm not coming off as badgering, because I'm really just super excited.

[kafka]

starskin said:

Ah, you see, but what you're saying is the problem with NW is actually the opposite. It's not that it's a narrow genre, it's that it's such an umbrella term that groups that sound nothing like each other get lumped into the NW category.

See, I totally agree with that. They do all get lumped in. But, IMO, they *shouldn't.* IOW, imo, "New Wave" should be a much narrower group than it is. B-52s as New Wave?? Please. Sheesh. And I don't care if they started up for DM once. That's much more a marketing, sales issue than a choice derived from musical coherency or ideological unity.

But back to what you were saying: that it's a narrow genre. What's narrow about it? Is it the instrumentation, the use of synthesizers, the lyrics...what? I hope I'm not coming off as badgering, because I'm really just super excited.

IMO (and again, I can't stress this enough, this is all purely my subjective, technically uneducated opinion), it's as much the sound as the content. I can't play or read music so I can't give you the technical breakdowns or explanations of why the B-52s sound different from Sisters of Mercy. I just know they do. Just as I know that Technotronic or Captain Hollywood Project sound different from SoM. Don't know why, or what makes techno music, but there is an obvious difference.

By the same token, Flock of Seagulls, Kajagoogoo, my beloved Dexy's Midnight Runners aren't the same. Yet, Erasure (a group that could skirt techno, pop, and --- under the currently overbroad definition of New Wave --- that as well) falls... where exactly? At the time of Depeche Mode's Violator (which was DM's closest foray into New Wave), the equivalent stuff from Erasure was nowhere close to having the same sound. And it certainly wasn't anything like Bizarre Love Triangle or Blue Monday. Yet, strangely enough, I've heard Erasure/New Order/Depeche Mode mega-mixes, so clearly some people think they overlap.

To me, Erasure will always be pop. New Order is New Wave. And Depeche Mode traverses multiple different genres. Because, like any successful group that has lasted decades, they've developed, transformed and adapted to numerous changes in music trends, some of those changes being pretty seismic. (Compare music from 1981 to 2001, and you have to admit the shifts have been huge over all.).

Any group which adapts and survives (like U2) over several decades will have a hard time be categorized into any one group. That's one of the main reasons why I don't think you can call Depeche Mode something like "New Wave," which is a term that comes laden with chronological limitations, even if only in the reader's mind. I also don't think they fit within the narrow confines of the term "New Wave" *as the term should be defined* instead of the current grab-bag and kitchen sink of definitions.

[Deleted]

Oh, man! My favorite music genre EVER! The Boomtown Rats and The Smiths were/are my faves—like, hands down forever and ever. I also love Pete Shelley, New Order, Depeche Mode, M and their one-hit wonder "Pop Muzik," Psychedelic Furs, Adam and the Ants, Flock of Seagulls, Soft Cell, Bauhaus, Captain Sensible, Billy Idol, The Cars, etc. I'm not sure what exactly defined "new wave," though I, in my limited musical wisdom, attribute it to the synth sound (even though The Smiths didn't use one—so I'm not sure if they fall into the category) and pop-y lyrics.

I listen to Fred on XM satellite radio these days and the Retro-active digital music channel on cable to get my fix since I loathe the current music scene. The only modern music that comes close, for me, to capturing that sound and the scene is The Killers—who I had the pleasure of seeing at a small club a few years back. And when I heard She Wants Revenge for the first time, I was hoping the remaining members of Joy Division were on their way to their lawyers to sue their pants off.

[carrier76]

New wave and the music of that era is hard to define...I would put Vince Clarke-era DM in the New Wave bin, but not Black Celebration era. And New Order is hard too...I don't know, when I think "New Wave," I think Duran Duran, Spandau Ballet, The Fixx, Berlin, etc.

I'm currently working on a CD-mix-series called UK Holiday, and it's all of the '80s/'90s "alterno"-pop/new wave/etc.; all my favorite music: New Order, Smiths, Cure, DM, Culture Club, Duran Duran, Erasure, Pet Shop Boys, Siouxsie, Yaz, Joy Division, Adam Ant, XTC, Simple Minds, Jesus & Mary Chain, even so far as Clash and Sex Pistols. Obviously the last two in that list are punk; to the uninformed I just say the rest is New Wave, even though I know it's not that simple.

[dwanollah]

I listen to Fred on XM satellite radio these days

*dreamy sigh*

That is Reason Number One to spring for XM, ain't it?

Starskin, as a mod (whom you must obey and respect), I DEMAND to see your thesis when it's done! Woot!

Their sound as a whole moved from pop to New Wave to Alternative so I don't think they can be categorized as New Wave over all.

Although back then, New Wave WAS alternative. It's not the bands that changed so much as the catagories. Or variety of them.

I love Cause & Effect's first two (or three?) albums but the last couple have sucked major donkey.

And just look up "New Wave" on wikipedia to see how varied the bands/artists grouped under that heading are.

[gimmeshelter]

I love early Kim Wilde ("Kids In America"), Duran Duran, the Cure & Blondie. Even INXS had some New Wave elements in their first couple albums.

Yaz's "Situation" and "Don't Go" are my jams!

I like New Wave because it's so varied and danceable (despite the subject matter). It can be rock, pop, or purely synth. I thought the Killers updated the genre really well. At times, I thought I was listening to an 80s CD!

[satellite]

Sisters of Mercy and Bauhaus cultivate more of a goth image and sound than new wave. You could even put Joy Division into the more goth category of post-punk. Like for me "Closer" is a straight-up goth album, but then you have stuff like "Love Will Tear Us Apart" which leans more towards New Wave.

I love Rammstein too, Kafka. I'm rather disappointed that they don't bother to tour the U.S. anymore. I saw them back when they were promoting Sehnsucht but I've purchased all their subsequent albums. They have the industrial sound that I loved from KMFDM, but with metal elements.

I think A Flock of Seagulls is the perfect synth band and I don't know why they get so little respect. I was so excited to see them play at an amusement park in like 2000, but everyone else just seemed like they drifted over to the stage. I even waited around for a bit to get an autograph, but no luck.