The Works of George R. R. Martin

[Coffeecakes]

So yeah created this because I'm halfway through A Dance with Dragons from A Song of Ice and Fire series. Any thoughts on who will end up being the winner in this game of thrones?

I personally go back and forth on Dany being the one or maybe it will be Aegon or Jon in the end. Hell maybe even Sansa or Arya.

[Babycakes]

I've read nothing but spoilers, but yeah, the common wisdom is that Dany, Aegon, or Jon, or some combination of the three will be the one to sit on the Iron Throne. I don't think any of them deserve it. I'd rather the Seven Kingdoms be just that, Seven separate kingdoms. No one person should rule all the territories. As long as a Starrk is back in power at Winterfell I'll be happy. Well actually, in my wildest daydreams, Gendry gets the Iron Throne with Arya as his Queen/co-ruler.

[Coffeecakes]

That would be awesome. Arya as the head of Winterfell would be awesome too. I just want her to issue some justice to Cersei but I don't think that will happen.

[Karen]

I don't know whether we'll actually get a winner, unless the TV show sustains its success and finishes the story with 7-8 seasons. GRRM just announced a development deal with HBO. His writing pace is already glacial and he keeps on picking up extra projects. I don't think his heart is in it anymore. He's fine with short stories and TV, but the tougher task of writing the actual books... yeah, I've got all my hopes pinned on Game of Thrones after this latest announcement.

If we do get an ending, I think it's either Dany on the Iron Throne or the Seven Kingdoms splitting apart (the North, the Iron Islands and Dorne as separate cultural/political entities). I believe that Rhaegar + Lyanna = Jon, but why would southerners trust any claim about that and let him sit on the throne? I'm also a believer in the theory that Aegon = Blackfyre pretender and the "mummer's dragon" that's going to end up slain by Dany as she saw in her vision. It's one thing that makes her chances seem a bit dodgier. She can say Fake Aegon was not really her nephew, but it's a very convenient PR weapon for her enemies ("look at the Mad King's daughter, she's become a kinslayer!"). And she's also lost Dorne, I'm pretty certain they will ally with Aegon once they get news of Quentyn's death. I'm not going to be happy if she can go from disaster to disaster and win it all simply because she's got dragons/nukes.

The only thing that I'm absolutely sure about is that a Stark (lord, lady, king) will rule in the North. Rickon's reason for existing seems to be that he can father the next generation. If Edmure dies, one of the Stark kids could get Riverrun.

I doubt any Stark will ever see Cersei again, but I'm feeling pretty good about the odds of Lady Stoneheart crashing the upcoming Lannister/Frey wedding.

[delilahjones]

I usually don't start series until after the series has ended (I just read all the Harry Potter books!)and I did not start this series until I started watching the show. And now it is driving me crazy that I have to wait soooo long for the next book. I didn't love Dance with Dragons as much. But it was interesting to see things from Cersei's perspective. Talk about paranoia! But it did make me hate her even more (well love to hate her). I really hope something truly horrible happens to that adviser she allows to do "medical" experiments on people. And I have become totally sympathetic to Jamie. He has become one of my favorites. I felt sad for him when it was pointed out to him that Tyrion is actually more like their father than he is. Rickon wasn't mentioned at all in Dance with Dragons, was he? Wonder what is going on with him. And, I hope Arya does not lose her drive for revenge. Her and Tyrion are definitely my favorites. Dany was, but I am starting to get annoyed by her, I find myself having to remind myself how young she is, and that she really is trying to do the right thing - freeing slaves- even if she doesn't totally know what to do afterwards. I agree that there should be seven seperate kingdoms. Let Sansa have the Erie ( I know that is the wrong name, but I can not remember it's real name or spelling), after the sickly son (hopefully) dies. And Arya becomes the ruler of Winterfall.

[Coffeecakes]

Feb 10, 2013 17:00:26 GMT -4 delilahjones said:

I usually don't start series until after the series has ended (I just read all the Harry Potter books!)and I did not start this series until I started watching the show. And now it is driving me crazy that I have to wait soooo long for the next book. I didn't love Dance with Dragons as much. But it was interesting to see things from Cersei's perspective. Talk about paranoia! But it did make me hate her even more (well love to hate her). I really hope something truly horrible happens to that adviser she allows to do "medical" experiments on people. And I have become totally sympathetic to Jamie. He has become one of my favorites. I felt sad for him when it was pointed out to him that Tyrion is actually more like their father than he is. Rickon wasn't mentioned at all in Dance with Dragons, was he? Wonder what is going on with him. And, I hope Arya does not lose her drive for revenge. Her and Tyrion are definitely my favorites. Dany was, but I am starting to get annoyed by her, I find myself having to remind myself how young she is, and that she really is trying to do the right thing - freeing slaves- even if she doesn't totally know what to do afterwards. I agree that there should be seven seperate kingdoms. Let Sansa have the Erie ( I know that is the wrong name, but I can not remember it's real name or spelling), after the sickly son (hopefully) dies. And Arya becomes the ruler of Winterfall.

Its the Vale and the castle is called the Eyrie or however its spelled.

They mentioned Rickon that he is at that cannibal island Skagos. Davos has been sent to retrieve him by lord Manderly so that the North can see a legit Stark and raise their banners for Stannis.

[delilahjones]

Thank you. I had totally forgotten about that.

Hey, do I need to spoil any of this?

One thing I really like about these books is that the characters are not black and white. Did anyone else start to feel bad for Theon Greyjoy? And there seems to be an ongoing theme of trying (and unable) to please fathers. It seems like the only good dad was Ned. I miss him. I would really like to see Asha become the queen of the Iron islands. And I think I only want Sansa to get the Vale because I don't want her to claim Winterfall, or even be in the running. I also hope that having to live as someone else, her abuse at the hands of Joffrey and the Lannisters, and her guilt over being somewhat responsible for her fathers death, has taught her some major lessons. Her marriage to Tyrion broke my heart. He was actually so respectful and kind of sweet to her, and her constant disgust with him was so horrible.

Okay, a couple other questions. What do you all think of the R'hllor and Melisandra? Or Gendry embracing that god and the resurrection of Catelyn Stark? Does anyone else hope Jaime and Brienne fall in love?

Coffeecakes thank you for starting this thread! No one else in my life has read these, so it is nice to have a place to discuss the books.

[Coffeecakes]

Feb 10, 2013 17:44:50 GMT -4 delilahjones said:

Thank you. I had totally forgotten about that.

Hey, do I need to spoil any of this?

One thing I really like about these books is that the characters are not black and white. Did anyone else start to feel bad for Theon Greyjoy? And there seems to be an ongoing theme of trying (and unable) to please fathers. It seems like the only good dad was Ned. I miss him. I would really like to see Asha become the queen of the Iron islands. And I think I only want Sansa to get the Vale because I don't want her to claim Winterfall, or even be in the running. I also hope that having to live as someone else, her abuse at the hands of Joffrey and the Lannisters, and her guilt over being somewhat responsible for her fathers death, has taught her some major lessons. Her marriage to Tyrion broke my heart. He was actually so respectful and kind of sweet to her, and her constant disgust with him was so horrible.

Okay, a couple other questions. What do you all think of the R'hllor and Melisandra? Or Gendry embracing that god and the resurrection of Catelyn Stark? Does anyone else hope Jaime and Brienne fall in love?

Coffeecakes thank you for starting this thread! No one else in my life has read these, so it is nice to have a place to discuss the books.

No problem. I was shocked that there wasnt a thread for this here.

You reminded me that Sansa IS responsible for Ned's death. She ran to Cersei and told her all of his plans to leave and send them off even though she had already seen what a little shits she and Joffrey were with the whole Micah situation. I was kind of hoping she would fall for Tyrion, but no her brattiness took over. So really she deserved to suffer a little, but not to the degree she did.

As for Melisandre and Rhollor. Dont know what to think about that. Bitch is cray cray imo.

I was reminded about Arya and Nymeria. Anyone think they're going to be reunited and she might use the pack to cause some damage?

As for Brienne and Jamie, there's already something there but I think he will die along with Cersei.

[Karen]

Feb 10, 2013 19:22:15 GMT -4 Coffeecakes said:

You reminded me that Sansa IS responsible for Ned's death. She ran to Cersei and told her all of his plans to leave and send them off even though she had already seen what a little shits she and Joffrey were with the whole Micah situation. I was kind of hoping she would fall for Tyrion, but no her brattiness took over. So really she deserved to suffer a little, but not to the degree she did.

Responsible for Ned's death? Ned, for not getting the kids away before giving Cersei a chance to escape and ensuring that she wouldn't be able to use them to threaten him. Cersei, for deciding that the murder of countless innocents was the price she was willing to pay and choosing not to escape to wealthy, safe, mostly bloodless anonymity somewhere in the east. Joffrey, for ordering Ned executed because he was a bloodthirsty idiot with no sense of how politically risky it was. Possibly Littlefinger, if he whispered to Joffrey about what a good idea it would be after Cersei refused to let him marry Sansa (as we learned in ADWD). Sansa was 11. After the Micah situation Ned didn't end the engagement, so how was she supposed to use it to judge Cersei and Joffrey when her saintly father seemed to have gotten over it? She went to the woman who should have been her mother-in-law since there was no sign of why Ned was ending the engagement now when he'd been fine with it even after Mycah. Sansa didn't tell Cersei all of his plans, she was in no position to do that. IIRC, when Cersei says something like that to Tyrion in ACOK, she doesn't mention that Ned himself told her; she's giving a version of the events that makes her look better by hiding what an advantage it was that Ned gave her a warning.

I also don't see why she should have fallen for Tyrion, the man who was given the choice to marry her and get Winterfell over the corpses of her brothers and let himself be persuaded to do that, who went along with the surprise marriage that denied her the Tyrell escape from her abusers that she'd actually consented to and was going to rape her until he stopped at the last moment. It wasn't brattiness, it was Sansa not going Stockholm syndrome. Tyrion wasn't kind to her, he was kind to himself: he wanted a fairytale marriage to a beautiful girl with a big castle, and grew bitter when reality intruded and she didn't respond to his empty wishes to make her play along. He constantly thinks about how Sansa fits or could be made to fit his happy dream, he never actually tries to learn who she is as a person and what might make her happy, and doesn't even acknowledge the obvious basic fact of what a hindrance to happiness it is that she is married to the family of her abusers and the murderers of her own family - Tyrion has the characteristic selfish perspective of the Lannisters, it's just under wraps in the first book which leaves a favourable impression of him.

Tyrion is a good illustration of the greyness of the books. He starts out looking like the sorta-grey underdog who only happened to be born into the wrong family and deserves a break. But if you consider what he actually does, "architect of his own misery" becomes a perfect description. His response to the emotional abuse he's suffered is not to strive to be a better man and to feel for the suffering of others, but to strive to be Tywin, to prove that he's his kind of Lannister. He can have his moments of kindness to Jorah and Penny in ADWD, but that doesn't undo the damage he's caused from ACOK onwards and still plans to cause.

He's also a Nice Guy misogynist. The problem is not with women not being able to see past his dwarfism, but in Tyrion's choices of women and inability to see how he himself contributes to the problem. He pays Shae to act like his perfect girlfriend, hits her when she annoyingly departs from the role, and ends up blaming her for never having meant it at all (you hired a prostitute and told her how to act, of course she's not required to mean it!) when Bronn gets a pass for his desertion and Shae is strangled. He doesn't feel empathy for Sansa's situation; after Joffrey promises to rape her, Tyrion's thoughts show no concern for her safety, only his own. He's bitter at Sansa for not kneeling while feeling absolutely no guilt for participating in a 12-year-old hostage's forced marriage or for how he groped her naked body before stopping on the wedding night. Her not wanting to have sex with him becomes a humiliating rejection he complains about, rather than something he (as the adult here) should understand as the reaction of a child who fears further sexual abuse after having already been stripped and beaten before the court(which should put his ideas about public shaming into perspective) by his family, which has broken promise after promise to her. He complains about her having been false to her vows, with no recognition of the fact that maybe a child hostage shouldn't feel terribly bad about having escaped her abusers. In ADWD he has his breakdown and makes himself feel better with threats of rape, abusing those with even less power than he has. He repeatedly rapes the slave girl despite noting that she's scarred and dead-eyed from past abuse, not a consenting partner. In short, no woman should go near him until he's recognised that he needs to change and start thinking about what the women themselves might want rather than how unfair it is that they don't become his perfect fantasy girlfriends despite having been paid/forced to be with him. And that's just his views on women, not the political crimes he tolerates and starts committing himself.

I was reminded about Arya and Nymeria. Anyone think they're going to be reunited and she might use the pack to cause some damage?

Her wolf would be one way to prove her identity. I guess it must have some purpose since we keep getting these little lines about how the pack has grown and is eating men.

[Coffeecakes]

You're right about Sansa, she just annoys the living shit out of me.

I just read how Barristan was telling Dany that her father took certain liberties during Lady Joanna bedding when she married Tywin. Could Cersei and Jamie be Targaryans? Maybe thats why they like the incest.