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Post by kostgard on Jul 12, 2019 16:27:12 GMT -4
Well, this explains a lot. I had noticed a few weeks back in the opening credits that there are a TON of editors listed (I noticed Vallee listed, but there were many others listed too). That felt weird to me - you usually see just a couple of editors credited. A lot of times, just one. But I never put it together. Even though when I first noticed and was all, "Why so many editors?" the episode had all those little weird flashback/POV flashes and I thought "Is that why? That still seems weird." Now it makes sense - all those editors are there to try to completely reshape this thing.
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Post by Martini Girl on Jul 12, 2019 16:38:06 GMT -4
I don't watch this show, but Andrea was trending on Twitter, so I found the article. Wow, and not surprised, but surprised.
What I don't get if it's just how -- I don't know that incompetent is the right word-- shocking it is that these HBO executives gave free rein to a woman all through pre/production, and then took everything away from her in post, and never had a conversation with her about it.
I have a friend who is a producer and has worked extensively with HBO for more than 2 decades. She said this is hardly surprising behavior.
That none of these executives found time to
1. check in and see what was going on thru pre-production, or come to the set to make sure things were going well.
2. Talk with Marc and David to make sure "their vision" was still in the cards (if, in fact, that was always so important) and then communicate that with Andrea
3. Actually have the balls and decency to call up Andrea and let her know what was going on, so she didn't find out after the fact.
I mean, David just sounds like an ass and ineffective executive. I don't know that that's a fair assessment, but you're the f*cking showrunner and you come on set every couple of weeks for an hour? Dude, this clusterf*ck is all on you.
Sorry for barging in on your BBL thread, but this bites.
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Post by Babycakes on Jul 12, 2019 17:13:42 GMT -4
Sixty-page scripts were slashed down to 40-plus minute episodes, sources say, largely by chopping up a scene to remove what one source described as Arnold’s character exploration and “ephemeral stuff.” UGH. Andrea Arnold is all about "ephemeral stuff". Why did they hire her if they didn't want her to do what she does? Was it just so they could get credit for hiring a woman? Looks that way. She's hardly the first female director who has been treated like an incompetent and had her work taken away from her to redone by men. It's infuriating. I have only seen one of Andrea Arnold's movies (Fishtank) but I absolutely loved it. It was a movie all about "character development" and she made it interesting and exciting. As this season of BLL has almost nothing going for it in terms of plot or suspense (blame David E Kelley's scripts for that) then character development is where it's at. I have a feeling I would be enjoying this season a lot more if I were seeing a full hour of what Andrea Arnold wanted to do. Yeah, maybe I'd be saying it's boring. But when I heard Andrea Arnold was directing, I was expecting it to be much different from last season and was on board with whatever her vision was. At least I wouldn't be yelling at my TV every Sunday at 9:42 "THAT'S IT?!?" This is so bizarre. Why would they even hire her if they didn't want to proceed with her vision/go in a new direction? If Vallee wasn't available at the time, they should have waited if they wanted to continue inline with what he executed in the first season. The first season was amazing. One of the best selling points about season one was the direction. Why did they need to go with the "girl power/women getting it done" angle at all? I don't remember hearing about any strife or bts problems the first go round. Was this a case of them rushing things out to capitalize on the show's popularity, and just not having the fundamentals nailed down? I'm a ball of confusion right now.  |
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Post by Ginger on Jul 12, 2019 19:29:04 GMT -4
Bad editing isn't something I normally notice, but last week's ending was so atrociously edited I went WTF and had to rewind just to understand what happened. Cory opened his car door, glanced up and then suddenly it cut to credits. Except it wasn't a momentous, cliffhanger glance. It wasn't a "Did he just see Bonnie and realize she recognized him?" glance. It was a "guy randomly glancing while performing a routine task" glance that they tried and failed to edit into a cliffhanger. And the scene with Ed in the bar was pretty WTF all around too. A reminder of who that woman coming on to Ed was really would have helped. I did remember that she was the woman with the new boobs from earlier in the season, but I did not remember that she was the wife of the man Maddie had the affair with last season. I thought she was one of the teachers. I mean, David just sounds like an ass and ineffective executive. I don't know that that's a fair assessment, but you're the f*cking showrunner and you come on set every couple of weeks for an hour? Dude, this clusterf*ck is all on you. Isn't showrunner and sole writer a pretty hands-on job? He's experienced as hell and he's produced a lot of great TV so I wouldn't think he's incompetent or lazy. Maybe he thought his presence would be intimidating and that he was doing her a favor by hanging back. If Vallee wasn't available at the time, they should have waited if they wanted to continue inline with what he executed in the first season. Or at least clued in the substitute director that they intended to mold her work into the same style in post-production - which sounds like a terrible idea to me, but maybe would have worked a little better if the director was in on it. |
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Post by Martini Girl on Jul 12, 2019 20:06:13 GMT -4
Bad editing isn't something I normally notice, but last week's ending was so atrociously edited I went WTF and had to rewind just to understand what happened. Cory opened his car door, glanced up and then suddenly it cut to credits. Except it wasn't a momentous, cliffhanger glance. It wasn't a "Did he just see Bonnie and realize she recognized him?" glance. It was a "guy randomly glancing while performing a routine task" glance that they tried and failed to edit into a cliffhanger. And the scene with Ed in the bar was pretty WTF all around too. A reminder of who that woman coming on to Ed was really would have helped. I did remember that she was the woman with the new boobs from earlier in the season, but I did not remember that she was the wife of the man Maddie had the affair with last season. I thought she was one of the teachers. I mean, David just sounds like an ass and ineffective executive. I don't know that that's a fair assessment, but you're the f*cking showrunner and you come on set every couple of weeks for an hour? Dude, this clusterf*ck is all on you. He's experienced as hell and he's produced a lot of great TV so I wouldn't think he's incompetent or lazy. Maybe he thought his presence would be intimidating and that he was doing her a favor by hanging back. If Vallee wasn't available at the time, they should have waited if they wanted to continue inline with what he executed in the first season. Or at least clued in the substitute director that they intended to mold her work into the same style in post-production - which sounds like a terrible idea to me, but maybe would have worked a little better if the director was in on it. Yes, it is. You rarely hear of a writer/producer who takes a hands-off approach during production-- Especially if it's a high profile project. That little nugget had me scratching my head. |
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Post by mrspickles on Jul 12, 2019 20:22:28 GMT -4
Where are Reese and Nicole in all this? I thought (perhaps incorrectly) that they had some Exec. Producer stake in this project. Are there levels to EP credit that I'm missing?
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Post by Ginger on Jul 12, 2019 20:28:18 GMT -4
Where are Reese and Nicole in all this? I thought (perhaps incorrectly) that they had some Exec. Producer stake in this project. Are there levels to EP credit that I'm missing? That was one of my first thoughts. They have gotten so much press and given so many awards speeches congratulating each other for being the "fearless" Executive Producers who "fought" for this and that. But then I realized that David E Kelley and Jean Marc Vallee are the pretty clear culprits here, so I don't want to immediately look for two women to blame for what they did. (But I'm still curious about where all the fearlessness and the fighting went....) |
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Post by Martini Girl on Jul 12, 2019 21:22:31 GMT -4
EP credits for actors can be vanity titles.
From shows I worked on, the actor got to nix story ideas, or have writers re-write dialogue. They could also advocate for bigger/juicier storylines, or say no to nudity. (I know Lizzie Caplan refused to do a lot of nudity on Masters of Sex once she became an EP. Caitriona Balfe requested less nudity on Outlander.)
But I found actors asserted their power when it came to press, and marketing for the show. They had a bigger say in what they would and would not do, and they had stronger control over their brand/image. Sometimes this makes the show better, and sometimes it's about the actor's ego, to the detriment of the story arc/show. Every case is different.
From what I read in the article, Nicole and Reese loved working with Andrea, and I'm not sure they knew David and Marc were going in and re-editing the show until they got the call that they needed to re-shoot 3-weeks' worth of story.
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Post by mrspickles on Jul 12, 2019 22:14:00 GMT -4
EP credits for actors can be vanity titles. From shows I worked on, the actor got to nix story ideas, or have writers re-write dialogue. They could also advocate for bigger/juicier storylines, or say no to nudity. (I know Lizzie Caplan refused to do a lot of nudity on Masters of Sex once she became an EP. Caitriona Balfe requested less nudity on Outlander.) But I found actors asserted their power when it came to press, and marketing for the show. They had a bigger say in what they would and would not do, and they had stronger control over their brand/image. Sometimes this makes the show better, and sometimes it's about the actor's ego, to the detriment of the story arc/show. Every case is different. From what I read in the article, Nicole and Reese loved working with Andrea, and I'm not sure they knew David and Marc were going in and re-editing the show until they got the call that they needed to re-shoot 3-weeks' worth of story. Thank you, Martini Girl for the explainer! Ginger, I wasn't thinking so much that Nicole or Reese were involved in the re-edits so much as I wonder whether they had anything to say about it at all, or whether they defended Andrea's work or anything. |
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Post by kostgard on Jul 14, 2019 22:51:53 GMT -4
How are they going to wrap this up in one episode?
Celeste is probably going to expose that Meryl was the one who killed her child. She’ll probably start with the insanity Meryl’s been pulling with Jane and Ziggy and it will go from there. I don’t know if handling this herself is the best idea, but nice that she remembers that she’s a lawyer. She enjoyed the work last season, she should get her shit together and go back to work.
Ed, if you feel the need to cheat, don’t do it with that lady. In her spank bank and on her bucket list? What does that even mean? Weird and gross. Stay away. Keep the moral high ground so you can lord it over Maddie. Nathan will tattle on you anyway.
Why is Cory so invested in hanging onto Jane? He explained, but it’s still weird. Move on, Jane.
Bonnie! She both confessed to pushing Perry and that she doesn’t love Nathan. How much you wanna bet someone overheard her? Most likely Nathan?
Renata! Leave. Your. Husband. He suuuuuuuuuuuuuucks. You should have shoved that Kleenex all the way down his throat.
Seriously - how are they going to wrap all this up?
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