Ang Lee

[memememe76]

The subplot in regards to Alma, Ennis' mental flashback about how Jack really died (or at least what he wants to think has happened)...

Given that you can't decisively interpret the scene involving Ennis' mental recreation of Jack's death, then it doesn't seem all that heavyhanded to me.

Really, I don't see how BBM is any more heavyhanded than, say, Eat Drink Man Woman. Father has no taste buds but regains them after reconciling with eldest daughter?

[orchidthief]

memememe76 said:

The subplot in regards to Alma, Ennis' mental flashback about how Jack really died (or at least what he wants to think has happened)...

Given that you can't decisively interpret the scene involving Ennis' mental recreation of Jack's death, then it doesn't seem all that heavyhanded to me.

Really, I don't see how BBM is any more heavyhanded than, say, Eat Drink Man Woman. Father has no taste buds but regains them after reconciling with eldest daughter?

Thanks for deciding for me

Indecision or not, I thought the film - and yes, that sequence - was heavyhanded in execution. Either interpretation (the former interpretation is about as subtle as a sledgehammer; the latter interpretation is relishing in masochistic romanticism - a la Ennis living in the shadow of the tire iron) proved needlessly heavyhanded. That sequence could've been portrayed in a more cryptic, humane manner. But alas, Lee took the source material too literally and resorted to didactic PC teaching that was fatalistic in an unhumanistic way (Ledger's character is not only a victim of his father's tire iron teachings, he's a victim of himself - his own stubborn personality depicted throughout the film. But alas Lee takes the easy way out and complacently resorts to the tire iron as the sole explanation).

One of BBM's problem IMHO was that the onscreen adaptation (I suppose the screenwriters are partially responsible for this) delved into melodrama (which is something Proulx's book did not). In the hands of a more skilled melodramatist (say Almodovar or Wong Kar-Wai), the film could've been less insufferable. But whatever Lee's strengths are as a director, strong aesthetics (which I think are vital to making melodrama seem alive rather than suffocating) isn't one of them. You don't need to be a Terrence Malick to depict Brokeback Mountain in a livelier manner. Instead, that vital place (which was supposed to represent a time and space where Ennis and Jack had more freedom, amongst other things) is merely reduced to a postcard imagery in Lee's hands.

[slashgirl]

As far as I'm concerned, since Annie Proulx approved of Ang Lee's direction, then that's good enough for me.

[Deleted]

orchidthief said:

Indecision or not, I thought the film - and yes, that sequence - was heavyhanded in execution. Either interpretation (the former interpretation is about as subtle as a sledgehammer; the latter interpretation is relishing in masochistic romanticism - a la Ennis living in the shadow of the tire iron) proved needlessly heavyhanded. That sequence could've been portrayed in a more cryptic, humane manner. But alas, Lee took the source material too literally and resorted to didactic PC teaching that was fatalistic in an unhumanistic way (Ledger's character is not only a victim of his father's tire iron teachings, he's a victim of himself - his own stubborn personality depicted throughout the film. But alas Lee takes the easy way out and complacently resorts to the tire iron as the sole explanation).

I'm not quite sure I understand what you're saying here. You say that Lee takes the easy way out and resorts to the tire iron as the sole explanation. But that's not the case at all. Ennis' own behaviour(stubborn personality, struggle with coming to terms with himself) is by far his biggest hindrance in life. This is made especially apparant when Ennis says the famous line "Jack I swear" which I interpreted as Ennis's regret and recognition that he himself chose not to pursue the relationship, and that even though his fears stem from his social background, it is ultimately his own actions which kept him from experiencing the possiblity of a realized love. And he has to live with that knowledge for the rest of his life.

But whatever Lee's strengths are as a director, strong aesthetics (which I think are vital to making melodrama seem alive rather than suffocating) isn't one of them. You don't need to be a Terrence Malick to depict Brokeback Mountain in a livelier manner. Instead, that vital place (which was supposed to represent a time and space where Ennis and Jack had more freedom, amongst other things) is merely reduced to a postcard imagery in Lee's hands.

I would say that I don't think Brokeback Mountain is supposed to be a "lively" place. It's about solitude and nature. I don't see why it should be depicted as lively, that would completely ruin the mood and tone of the film in my opinion.

[orchidthief]

nusan said:

orchidthief said:

Indecision or not, I thought the film - and yes, that sequence - was heavyhanded in execution. Either interpretation (the former interpretation is about as subtle as a sledgehammer; the latter interpretation is relishing in masochistic romanticism - a la Ennis living in the shadow of the tire iron) proved needlessly heavyhanded. That sequence could've been portrayed in a more cryptic, humane manner. But alas, Lee took the source material too literally and resorted to didactic PC teaching that was fatalistic in an unhumanistic way (Ledger's character is not only a victim of his father's tire iron teachings, he's a victim of himself - his own stubborn personality depicted throughout the film. But alas Lee takes the easy way out and complacently resorts to the tire iron as the sole explanation).

I'm not quite sure I understand what you're saying here. You say that Lee takes the easy way out and resorts to the tire iron as the sole explanation. But that's not the case at all. Ennis' own behaviour(stubborn personality, struggle with coming to terms with himself) is by far his biggest hindrance in life. This is made especially apparant when Ennis says the famous line "Jack I swear" which I interpreted as Ennis's regret and recognition that he himself chose not to pursue the relationship, and that even though his fears stem from his social background, it is ultimately his own actions which kept him from experiencing the possiblity of a realized love. And he has to live with that knowledge for the rest of his life.

As I've said before, the flashback of Jack being attacked by the tire denotes that either Ennis believed that it truly happened or would've liked to believed it happened. The influence of his father's tire iron story, in this context, doomed Ennis. I'm sure young Ennis, being at such an impressionable age, would've undoubtedly not been immune to such a scary story. But as Proulx's story so articulately conveys, one of Ennis' flaws is that he's a daydreamer, always dreaming about anything BUT the present. In the film, however, Lee singlehandedly fingerpoints to the homophobic tire iron story, without implicitly acknowledging that a person of Ennis' personality would've likely been more receptive towards such a story than, say, a more optimistic, "carpe diem" individual. I think BBM falls short as both a character piece (on Ennis) and a social commentary. Ledger was too good for the material IMHO.

btw, Godfrey Cheshire explains (more articulately than me) in detail about why the PC sermonizing is too simplistic, given the character of Ennis who has his own baggage - his personality:

Lee's film, on the other hand, wants to hold on to the fantasy that everything that "Brokeback Mountain" represents to Ennis and Jack might somehow have been preserved forever. To do this, it must downplay all evidence of their divergent characters (Jack evidently sleeps with many men including male prostitutes, while Ennis' other romantic interests are female) in order to hint that the two men could have stayed together as a couple were it not for the terrible force of "homophobia," two instances of which are clumsily inserted into the story at crucial points.

While it may further burnish the film's romantic sheen, this kind of politically thwarted, would-be "happily ever after" is just as phony and fantastical as the old, achieved kind. It tells us that life is all a matter of social structures and political arrangements rather than the messy exigencies of character, fate and individual choice. That tendency is what finally drags Lee's film away from art into the realm of P.C. sermonizing.

But whatever Lee's strengths are as a director, strong aesthetics (which I think are vital to making melodrama seem alive rather than suffocating) isn't one of them. You don't need to be a Terrence Malick to depict Brokeback Mountain in a livelier manner. Instead, that vital place (which was supposed to represent a time and space where Ennis and Jack had more freedom, amongst other things) is merely reduced to a postcard imagery in Lee's hands.

I would say that I don't think Brokeback Mountain is supposed to be a "lively" place. It's about solitude and nature. I don't see why it should be depicted as lively, that would completely ruin the mood and tone of the film in my opinion.

Nature, which is wild and uninhibited - devoid of social constructs and rules which oppressed Ennis and Jack once they left Brokeback Mountain. It's a pity that in Ang Lee's hands, the mountains and streaming waters he shot seemed so static. Even the bear that attacked Ennis earlier in the film seemed tame.

As for solitude, Lee could've used sound (derived from nature... from trees? cows or mountain bears?) to denote the vast spaces Ennis and Jack had all to themselves. He could've accentuated this mood of solitude. But alas, he didn't.

As far as I'm concerned, since Annie Proulx approved of Ang Lee's direction, then that's good enough for me.

I remember John Irving giving his seal of approval to the adaptation of Cider House Rules. Nevertheless, that didn't dissuade me from thinking of how mediocre Lasse Hallstrom's direction was.

I can think of the same case for some hardcore fans of Alice Walker's The Color Purple who were critical towards Spielberg's adaptation (and Walker was hired as on-set consultant, no less).

[Deleted]

As I've said before, the flashback of Jack being attacked by the tire denotes that either Ennis believed that it truly happened or would've liked to believed it happened. The influence of his father's tire iron story, in this context, doomed Ennis. I'm sure young Ennis, being at such an impressionable age, would've undoubtedly not been immune to such a scary story. But as Proulx's story so articulately conveys, one of Ennis' flaws is that he's a daydreamer, always dreaming about anything BUT the present. In the film, Lee singlehandedly fingerpoints to the tire iron story.

I disagree, I don't think the film singlehandedly fingerpoints to the tire iron story. Obviously what happened to Ennis when he was young haunts him. But what I think is evident by the "Jack I swear" line, is the greatest tragedy for Ennis is his final realization that ultimately it is his own fault that their love was never truely realized. At the end of the day, it was Ennis' inner struggle which was his greatest hindrance in ever truely experiencing and living life. And that's why the last line is so haunting for the audience (or me at least). Even at that moment, where he finally faces the truth, he can't even bring himself to finish the sentence. It's still an inner struggle. But he doesn't have to say it for us to understand it.

In my opinion, I love the mood and tone that the nature sets. But that's because I don't think the imagery has to be chaotic or lively to represent nature. I actually think there's often a sense of rhythm in nature, pobably having to do with it being cyclical and balanced. Just a difference in how we see nature I guess.

I was listening to an Annie Proulx radio interview a while back, and it was really interesting to hear what she had to say about the film. She wasn't a part of the production at all, so she really had no idea what she was going to see when she sat down at the screening for her last fall. She said that she was completely blown away by the film. She especially praised Heath Ledger and went on and on about what an incredible job he did in capturing Ennis. In fact she even said that Heath knew Ennis far better than she ever did and she had no idea how he managed to bring so much to life that she didn't even know existed in the character until she saw his portrayal. She also had nice things to say about Jake, but you could tell that Heath was the one she was just utterly amazed at.

[orchidthief]

I didn't sense any vivid mood in the mountain scenes. I don't think Ang Lee uses images and sound to its fullest. He just points and shoots.

He's a nice guy and all, but he's way overrated as a director.

[slashgirl]

I remember John Irving giving his seal of approval to the adaptation of Cider House Rules. Nevertheless, that didn't dissuade me from thinking of how mediocre Lasse Hallstrom's direction was.

I can think of the same case for some hardcore fans of Alice Walker's The Color Purple who were critical towards Spielberg's adaptation (and Walker was hired as on-set consultant, no less).

I don't like every film version of a best-selling book either and I'm not saying that every author should if they don't want to. I'm just saying that given AP's reluctance to let any of her stories be filmed again after the disastrous treatment of The Shipping News, that she would let BBM be made at all and for it to turn out as well as I believe it did, thanks largely to Ang Lee, is incredible.