|
|
Post by Coffeecakes on Sept 18, 2020 14:40:37 GMT -4
For those that suffer from gender dysphoria, I feel lots of sympathy for, it must be hell, especially if known as a child. But by your logic, because they go through hell, we should consider them women. You said it yourself, "what they believe they are". A belief is different from fact. Just because they are suffering, doesn't mean everyone has to validate their feelings by proclaiming them real women. They are trans women and there is nothing wrong with that. Trans people should live their lives how they want to, but at the same time, not invade women's spaces. We as women are constantly in danger from men, and yes trans women feel like they are not men, but most still look like what they were born as, male. Our safety or language to describe ourselves should not be set aside or changed to coddle feelings. Because that is what this is at the end of the day, feelings. My trans woman friend has breast implants, had her penis removed, can't pee standing up anymore. Those are facts, not beliefs. Language to describe ourselves shouldn't be set aside or changed to coddle feelings? Does that mean it's ok to start using "ni**er" or "retard" again? Because people are suffering, we shouldn't validate their feelings? I think the BLM and Me Too movements would have issues with that. She may have done all that, but she is still biologically male at the end of the day which cannot be changed. She believes she is a woman. That isn't a fact, that is her belief based on her gender dysphoria. An anorexic with body dysmorphia believes they are overweight to obese, is that reality? No, it's their belief based on their body dysmorphia. Being black and being mentally disabled is a reality that cannot be changed. Don't twist that to compare it to a trans person who has gender dysphoria which makes them believe they are the opposite gender. To coddle something that isn't a reality like repeating over and over that they are real women just like a bio woman isn't saying it's okay to say the N word or the R word. Nice try though with the false equivalence. Trans women are trans, nothing wrong with that. And to be a woman isn't some material thing like liking pink, lipstick, getting breast implants, or removing your penis, etc. It is as simple as our xx chromosomes. I am a woman because I am, not because I say, my dna does all the talking. A trans man is still a woman. They can get cervical cancer, pcos, etc. A trans woman who has all their surgeries still can get diseases men specifically get because they will always be male. A woman is an adult human female. A man is an adult human male. |
|
|
|
Post by Neurochick on Sept 18, 2020 15:34:47 GMT -4
In my opinion, trans women are women, and trans men are men. They’d like to use the washrooms they identify with, just like we all do. In a perfect world, there’d be gender-free washroom facilities. As I’ve mentioned in Current Events, I’m the mum of a transgender person. Optimally, I’d like to think that my child will not be treated as an other, and singled out, when they just want to fit in where they feel most comfortable. I work in a university where there are gender neutral bathrooms. The reason they were changed was because they used to be men's bathrooms. There were no women's bathrooms on some of the floors but there were men's bathrooms, when women began to complain, the school changed those bathrooms to gender neutral. |
|
leigh1983
Lady in Waiting
Posts: 132
Mar 28, 2020 14:29:17 GMT -4
|
Post by leigh1983 on Sept 18, 2020 16:36:21 GMT -4
She may have done all that, but she is still biologically male at the end of the day which cannot be changed. She believes she is a woman. That isn't a fact, that is her belief based on her gender dysphoria. An anorexic with body dysmorphia believes they are overweight to obese, is that reality? No, it's their belief based on their body dysmorphia. Being black and being mentally disabled is a reality that cannot be changed. Don't twist that to compare it to a trans person who has gender dysphoria which makes them believe they are the opposite gender. To coddle something that isn't a reality like repeating over and over that they are real women just like a bio woman isn't saying it's okay to say the N word or the R word. Nice try though with the false equivalence. Trans women are trans, nothing wrong with that. And to be a woman isn't some material thing like liking pink, lipstick, getting breast implants, or removing your penis, etc. It is as simple as our xx chromosomes. I am a woman because I am, not because I say, my dna does all the talking. A trans man is still a woman. They can get cervical cancer, pcos, etc. A trans woman who has all their surgeries still can get diseases men specifically get because they will always be male. A woman is an adult human female. A man is an adult human male. If I'm remembering what I learned in my Intro to Neuroscience class we all start as females when we are in the womb. As we start to develop that's when start developing the characteristics of being male or female such as estrogen and testosterone. There's a lot of other stuff that goes on, but I would have to look it up in my book. However great the human body is it doesn't always do the job it's suppose to. Some people are born with missing chromosomes or too many chromosomes. I'm sure many people on here know that Down's Syndrome is a genetic disease that develops because a child was only born with 21 chromosomes. So if we know certain things happen in the body, why can't we accept that while a child was developing in the womb, that there brain was wired one way, but biologically developed another way. There are also people who are intersex, you might see someone who completely looks like a women on the outside, but she might not have the anatomy we associate with a woman. |
|
eveschmeve
Sloane Ranger
Posts: 2,330
Mar 7, 2005 15:24:15 GMT -4
|
Post by eveschmeve on Sept 18, 2020 16:38:23 GMT -4
The bathroom stuff is so so ridiculous to me. Are lots of women randomly attacked in bathrooms by trans women? Is this a thing? Is there some kind of magical force field that prevents cisgender men from going into a woman’s bathroom if they wanted to attack someone? If someone really wants to attack someone else I don’t think a bathroom sign is going to make much of a difference.
We’ve created this situation for trans people. Cisgender people have determined there are two kinds of bathrooms- men’s and women’s. We’ve forced trans people to make the choice of which one to use and then tell them either choice they make is wrong. Feelings and facts are two different things and we should be careful to make policies based simply on feelings.
|
|
|
|
Post by ladyboy on Sept 18, 2020 17:13:59 GMT -4
Gender identity is not the same as biological sex.
|
|
|
|
Post by Wol on Sept 18, 2020 17:36:16 GMT -4
My trans woman friend has breast implants, had her penis removed, can't pee standing up anymore. Those are facts, not beliefs. Language to describe ourselves shouldn't be set aside or changed to coddle feelings? Does that mean it's ok to start using "ni**er" or "retard" again? Because people are suffering, we shouldn't validate their feelings? I think the BLM and Me Too movements would have issues with that. She may have done all that, but she is still biologically male at the end of the day which cannot be changed. She believes she is a woman. That isn't a fact, that is her belief based on her gender dysphoria. An anorexic with body dysmorphia believes they are overweight to obese, is that reality? No, it's their belief based on their body dysmorphia. Being black and being mentally disabled is a reality that cannot be changed. Don't twist that to compare it to a trans person who has gender dysphoria which makes them believe they are the opposite gender. To coddle something that isn't a reality like repeating over and over that they are real women just like a bio woman isn't saying it's okay to say the N word or the R word. Nice try though with the false equivalence. Trans women are trans, nothing wrong with that. And to be a woman isn't some material thing like liking pink, lipstick, getting breast implants, or removing your penis, etc. It is as simple as our xx chromosomes. I am a woman because I am, not because I say, my dna does all the talking. A trans man is still a woman. They can get cervical cancer, pcos, etc. A trans woman who has all their surgeries still can get diseases men specifically get because they will always be male. A woman is an adult human female. A man is an adult human male. My trans male friend had his breasts removed and a hysterectomy. So no, can't get girl part cancers. I never made a false equivalency between being POC or mentally disabled. I made an equivalency with your statement about language. There's a distinction. In an effort to better understand your perspective, what concerns you about identifying trans people as their gender of choice? Why does this trigger you? I'm genuinely curious. |
|
|
|
Post by Coffeecakes on Sept 18, 2020 17:50:07 GMT -4
She may have done all that, but she is still biologically male at the end of the day which cannot be changed. She believes she is a woman. That isn't a fact, that is her belief based on her gender dysphoria. An anorexic with body dysmorphia believes they are overweight to obese, is that reality? No, it's their belief based on their body dysmorphia. Being black and being mentally disabled is a reality that cannot be changed. Don't twist that to compare it to a trans person who has gender dysphoria which makes them believe they are the opposite gender. To coddle something that isn't a reality like repeating over and over that they are real women just like a bio woman isn't saying it's okay to say the N word or the R word. Nice try though with the false equivalence. Trans women are trans, nothing wrong with that. And to be a woman isn't some material thing like liking pink, lipstick, getting breast implants, or removing your penis, etc. It is as simple as our xx chromosomes. I am a woman because I am, not because I say, my dna does all the talking. A trans man is still a woman. They can get cervical cancer, pcos, etc. A trans woman who has all their surgeries still can get diseases men specifically get because they will always be male. A woman is an adult human female. A man is an adult human male. My trans male friend had his breasts removed and a hysterectomy. So no, can't get girl part cancers. I never made a false equivalency between being POC or mentally disabled. I made an equivalency with your statement about language. There's a distinction. In an effort to better understand your perspective, what concerns you about identifying trans people as their gender of choice? Why does this trigger you? I'm genuinely curious. I have no issue with calling anyone by their preferred pronouns, what I don't agree with is literally saying they are women or men because they feel they are. They identity as men or women, there is a difference. They are trans men and trans women. I don't agree with changing basic language again to validate trans people's feelings such as saying people menstruate, etc. That bullshit is not pulled with men claiming people get prostate cancer or people have erectile dysfuntion. The other day on facebook, a health group posted women's genitals as vaginas in different colors, and a whole white dick. Men's genitals on the other hand were all penises in different colors, not one vagina. Things like Emily Decaudin another trans woman who didn't even bother to transition, taking the female district leader in New York and then petitioning to eliminate the male and female roles that were helped put in place by suffragettes to literally have a seat at the damn table. Not only was it taken by a whole ass man, but completely eliminated altogether. It just means that no matter how a man identifies, it seems their wants are prioritized and that I will never agree with. |
|
|
|
Post by Wol on Sept 18, 2020 19:03:15 GMT -4
Respectfully, I think it is concerning to operate from a perspective of bias because a few people behaved badly or twisted the transgender narrative to suit their purposes. Me Too had this problem with "believe all women" because there are some shitty women who will make a false rape accusation (rare, but it happens - Central Park Karen came pretty close). This is definitely an agree to disagree, YMMV situation.
|
|
londonstill
Lady in Waiting
Posts: 272
Sept 8, 2007 23:10:19 GMT -4
|
Post by londonstill on Sept 18, 2020 19:47:22 GMT -4
She may have done all that, but she is still biologically male at the end of the day which cannot be changed. She believes she is a woman. That isn't a fact, that is her belief based on her gender dysphoria. An anorexic with body dysmorphia believes they are overweight to obese, is that reality? No, it's their belief based on their body dysmorphia. Being black and being mentally disabled is a reality that cannot be changed. Don't twist that to compare it to a trans person who has gender dysphoria which makes them believe they are the opposite gender. To coddle something that isn't a reality like repeating over and over that they are real women just like a bio woman isn't saying it's okay to say the N word or the R word. Nice try though with the false equivalence. Trans women are trans, nothing wrong with that. And to be a woman isn't some material thing like liking pink, lipstick, getting breast implants, or removing your penis, etc. It is as simple as our xx chromosomes. I am a woman because I am, not because I say, my dna does all the talking. A trans man is still a woman. They can get cervical cancer, pcos, etc. A trans woman who has all their surgeries still can get diseases men specifically get because they will always be male. A woman is an adult human female. A man is an adult human male. If I'm remembering what I learned in my Intro to Neuroscience class we all start as females when we are in the womb. As we start to develop that's when start developing the characteristics of being male or female such as estrogen and testosterone. There's a lot of other stuff that goes on, but I would have to look it up in my book. However great the human body is it doesn't always do the job it's suppose to. Some people are born with missing chromosomes or too many chromosomes. I'm sure many people on here know that Down's Syndrome is a genetic disease that develops because a child was only born with 21 chromosomes. So if we know certain things happen in the body, why can't we accept that while a child was developing in the womb, that there brain was wired one way, but biologically developed another way. There are also people who are intersex, you might see someone who completely looks like a women on the outside, but she might not have the anatomy we associate with a woman. I struggle with that idea because it suggests that there is something innate about gender. How does that marry off with the idea that there is more than one way to be a woman? I don’t have any feelings of gender identity whatsoever. I feel like intersex people are in a very different situation. |
|
|
|
Post by ladyboy on Sept 19, 2020 11:02:45 GMT -4
You probably don’t have any “feelings” about gender identity because your body (sex) and gender are aligned. Most cis people don’t have feelings about their gender identity because they don’t have to. It just is and it’s the dominant norm. Kind of how white males don’t have “feelings” about discrimination (Or splitting housework evenly) because it isn’t happening to them, therefore not something they need to address, think about, or deal with. When your gender identity isn’t in alignment with your body (sex), then feelings about it emerge.
I dislike this thread immensely and think there are extremely bigoted views being put forth. This may hurt your feelings, but I can’t worry about your feelings when the fact is that your comments are intolerant, rooted in bias, and unaccepting. Isn’t that the argument that’s been posited here? Trans people’s feelings don’t matter because of the reality of their biology?
Many of the “arguments” of why you don’t like trans women seem to be based on that they don’t “pass” as female. There are trans people who do not go through the puberty of their biological sex. They pass much better. Will you permit them to be considered women or men? What will you do if you ever meet one of them? You won’t be able to tell they were assigned male or female at birth. If they’re in a bathroom with you, how will you even know?
Trans people have been part of humanity for a long time, if not forever. Just because our culture suppressed them doesn’t mean they don’t exist. Your just have to acknowledge them now and it’s hard for you. I get it. But that’s a YOU problem, not a trans person problem.
|
|
