Beyoncé Knowles

[deeconsistent]

I feel like I should clarify that I didn't say or imply that black women are under a special obligation to be Beyonce fans. I didn't feel like I was whispering among "mixed company" because I believe most of the people on this board who have been most passionate about their dislike for Beyonce have said they are black women. I know several black women in real life who dislike Beyonce and I don't consider that a judgement against their blackness, womanness, etc. I only consider it a judgement against their taste.

What I did say is that for someone who has been a Beyonce fan for basically all of her career, as a black woman it is hard to reconcile with the fact that this is the era I'm least excited about. There have been many projects that I've supported, in some part, to make a point. Even though I talked shit about Jennifer Lawrence on this board, I still went to see "Red Sparrow" opening weekend. I checked out "The Ghostbusters" reboot on opening weekend, too, mainly to make a point. I do think it is something that is important to do if you are interested in seeing changes in entertainment. However, I have only ever supported Beyonce projects because I was excited about them. I have most of Bey's discography, I attended the "Lemonade" tour, I even saw "Obsessed" when it was in theaters. It is only natural that one's interest in a celebrity would change after nearly two decades, but on a personal level, the circumstances surrounding her career make it more conflicting.

[tanyak]

Jun 21, 2018 12:51:55 GMT -4 deeconsistent said:

I feel like I should clarify that I didn't say or imply that black women are under a special obligation to be Beyonce fans. I didn't feel like I was whispering among "mixed company" because I believe most of the people on this board who have been most passionate about their dislike for Beyonce have said they are black women. I know several black women in real life who dislike Beyonce and I don't consider that a judgement against their blackness, womanness, etc. I only consider it a judgement against their taste.

Oh, I don't think you think that yourself. But for some reason, I do feel like there is some I guess, surprise, if you aren't totally into her. When her Lemonade tour came around a couple of years ago, Lil Mr. Tanyak was in kindergarten and his after-school teacher was going. She was so excited - got a yellow manicure and everything. She seemed taken aback that I hadn't been chasing down tickets to go. I was like "No...."

FWIW, I was a fan back in the DC days and for her first two albums. "My Myself and I," "Dangerously in Love," and "No, No, No (Part 2)" were my JAMS. lol

[Deleted]

BBW here. I am a Bouncy fan on the peripheral. Some of the songs are bops, yes. Will I join the Beyhive? No. I look at Bey beyond the surface and love to discuss the motivations behind her music ad nauseum. I think that she really isn't happy with Jay and is just like most women who hold on to their marital status far longer than they should have. All the pictures I have seen don't show a woman in love with her husband. I am far more interested in her as a person than I am in her music.

[Babycakes]

Jun 21, 2018 7:11:02 GMT -4 ladyboy said:

Is Misogynoir a real thing or did you come up with that term? It's brilliant.

I'm not a Bey fan, nor a hater, but I generally find discussion of her - her fame, what she's doing with her shows, her music, etc, - far more interesting than actually watching or listening to her. I love the thoughts Babycakes and Deeconsistent are sharing - good analysis of her broadly, as well as a personal response to her. It's very interesting to read. Please, continue!

PS I am kind of sick of her leotards on stage and sheer dresses at events. I also don't want to hear braggy songs about how much money someone has. My theory on that topic, which spans all artists, not just her, is that when they start they're poor/normal, and can write songs about all sorts of things. When they make a lot of money, their world view and experience narrows to such a stupid, unrelatable point that they end up singing about their bank accounts, cars, and Pilates classes.

I'm no where near smart enough to come with Misogynoir on my own. I heard the term in a throw away joke on the Desus & Mero podcast, and googled it. It was really eye-opening.

Jun 21, 2018 12:51:55 GMT -4 deeconsistent said:

I feel like I should clarify that I didn't say or imply that black women are under a special obligation to be Beyonce fans. I didn't feel like I was whispering among "mixed company" because I believe most of the people on this board who have been most passionate about their dislike for Beyonce have said they are black women. I know several black women in real life who dislike Beyonce and I don't consider that a judgement against their blackness, womanness, etc. I only consider it a judgement against their taste.

I meant to be more general about black people critiquing other black people in front of white people. I believe there is an inherent desire to protect/defend black art/artists, because for so long it has been dismissed, diminished, and co-opted by the white majority. So to be seen as jumping on the bandwagon, siding with the "enemy" (for lack of a better word) can be difficult. It's pervasive in the black community. I saw a really interesting interview with Amanda Seales where she discussed how the #MeToo movement hasn't caught up with the music/rap community yet. She stated she had so many stories to tell, but didn't what to be seen as "that chick" that's trying to "tear a brotha down". She felt that it is a delicate balance between her conscience, and fighting the backlash she would inevitably face. I say all that to say this--Didn't mean to call you out deeconsisent. You speak on whatever you want to whenever, and where ever, in front of whomever. Vent as you please. But I do think there can be apprehension of appearing as jumping on the bandwagon. Or just not connecting with an artist's latest project. Or just out growing an artist. I've seen a lot of testimonials from stans that just can't get into the latest Bey/Jay project, and there is a lot of ennui.

[lpatrice]

Jun 20, 2018 19:59:50 GMT -4 tanyak said:

I am also a black woman. I admire Beyoncé’s business savvy and I wish her well. I still find her very tiresome. I just feel she’s extra in so many parts of her life. Her message most of the time is good, it’s just all the drama surrounding her message. And the complete insanity of some members of the Hive. And I’m with Dee— i’m over all of her talk about her money, and how everyone wants to get close to her at parties and similar bragging.

My best friend, also black, and I have talked about this before. I don’t know why we feel we have to whisper if we have any criticism of Bey. I get that people in other demographics have gone for her neck, and obviously that’s not right. But I just can’t stan for her, either. So I just stay quiet, although I hope this is a safe place to be real.

I'm right there with you. And frankly, I don't understand the second joint tour or the showing tidbits of their private lives to fans at this stage. They are two of the biggest stars on the planet and they don't need the money; I don't know why they are essentially low key shilling their private lives for this tour. My theory is that they are still not completely recovered from the cheating and they are trying to convince themselves that everything is okay. Also, this line:

”My great-great-grandchildren already rich/That’s a lot of brown chil’run on your Forbes list”

I don't get why people are so excited about that. She's talking about her direct line, which is great and there's nothing wrong with it. But I'd be more impressed if she talked about started a foundation or endowment which could pave the way for other brown children to be on the list, not just her own. Whatever the case, it also shows that she clearly doesn't understand that wealth can easily be lost in a generation or two with feckless spending and poor money management. I live in a city full of low key billionaires, people who give away hundreds of millions of dollars a year - so I'm just not that impressed with rich folks who can only talk about their own wealth.

[ladyboy]

May 29, 2005 13:06:38 GMT -4 lpatrice said:

Whatever the case, it also shows that she clearly doesn't understand that wealth can easily be lost in a generation or two with feckless spending and poor money management.

See the Johnny Depp thread for an example of losing it one generation.

[Strawberry]

Jun 24, 2018 14:32:33 GMT -4 lpatrice said:

I'm right there with you. And frankly, I don't understand the second joint tour or the showing tidbits of their private lives to fans at this stage. They are two of the biggest stars on the planet and they don't need the money; I don't know why they are essentially low key shilling their private lives for this tour. My theory is that they are still not completely recovered from the cheating and they are trying to convince themselves that everything is okay.

I'm not a WOC, but I am married and some things are just universal no matter the race. And I'm right there with you too. It just seems like desperation. I've tried to appreciate "Ape Shit" for it's social and political commentary, but it's hard to enjoy that when I also see a cheating man being led around by his angry wife. No amount of collaboration, editorials, interviews etc are going to erase what he did or take away her shame and humiliation, and it's just sad to see her still grappling with this and trying to prove a point to the Becky's of the world. The truth of their relationship isn't in the music, it's in the dynamic behind the music, and you can't lie to your listeners and say otherwise. It's like that Hemingway quote: write one true sentence. Well, Bey and Jay aren't writing truth right now, they're painting a perfect picture, and it's false and it doesn't resonate with people. Which is a shame, because I really enjoy the rest of the message, and I've learned so much as a person listening to the reactions and experiences that people share because of Bey's art.

Edit: You know what it's like? It's like when a couple gets a joint FB page because the man cheated and then the woman posts romantic memes from pinterest to prove the marriage is strong.

[sugarhigh]

If you listen to the album, she doesn't say that things are perfect at all. In the last song (lovehappy), she says that she believes he can change (mileage may vary) and that there's a long way to go but they're working on it.

[Queena]

As a woman of color, I'm here for Jay Z, Beyoncé and Black love.

[deeconsistent]

It is really a fantastic album. Honestly, listening to it in the context of last week in entertainment, I had an even greater appreciation for it. I even like "Apesh*t" as part of the whole.