Lost

[Deleted]

May 12, 2010 23:10:09 GMT -4 angelaudie said:

You know what I find so sad? It really seems that at one time MIB really loved Jacob. He repeatedly asked Jacob to join him. Even after MIB left the caves he still wanted to spend time with Jacob. There was no hint of resentment from MIB toward Jacob. The resentment seems to have started after MIB got Smokified.

I found the bond between the brothers very moving. The way MiB wanted Jacob to come with him, the way Jacob looked so torn between the only mother he'd ever known and his brother... And then later, Jacob's real grief when he carried his dead brother to the cave. I found the whole episode quite moving. Even Mother seemed more tragic and sad than ferocious, in spite of her actions. I really appreciate that this show shies away from making characters pure evil or pure good. And of course they all have shitty childhoods. Mommy issues AND daddy issues.

[Strawberry]

May 12, 2010 23:01:20 GMT -4 angelaudie said:

It's sort of taken for granted that Jacob is the truth-teller and MiB is the liar but from what I can tell- MiB hasn't told a single lie. He admits he let Claire believe 'others' had her baby so that she could hate and go on.

I'm pretty sure Claire stated Mocke told her the Others had Aaron. I would also wager he was lying through his teeth when he claimed he only had Claire's best interests at heart when he told her the Others had Aaron.

Well, there's always been some questions about Kate. Is she really an Other, a Lostie, something else? We don't know enough yet to know if he was truly lying.

The problem with this theory is Jacob can leave the island unsupervised. It's considered safe for him to be off island and around people. MIB can't leave the island though.

But I'm saying MiB is protecting the *light* from Jacob, not protecting people from Jacob. Jacob isn't a threat off island, but MiB away from the island puts the light in danger.

Jacob cheated in the game of black and white while MiB was adamant about the rules.

According to various Lost sources the game they are playing is called Senet and the rules are actually highly debated. It appears different groups had different rules for the game. So, it's possible this hints at that Jacob and MIB have very different rules (something tells me MIB came to regret telling Jacob one day he could make up his own game and his own rules).

Didn't know this. Thanks!

Jacob has had moment of violence but it seems these violent moments happened prior to meeting Richard. Jacob had never interacted with anyone other than crazy mom and MIB. He really didn't understand how humans operated. In his mind people should just automatically do the right thing. He didn't understand why people were just listening to MIB. Richard had to point out the painfully obvious-- how can you expect them to do the right thing when MIB is misleading them. Jacob needed a representative to spread his word (much like how God needed prophets to spread his).

But if someone is inherently good, why would they have bouts of violence? There's no compassion or empathy there. Jacob didn't attack his brother because he posed a threat to all that's good and holy. He attacked him because he himself is weak. MiB was destroying his worldview, his beliefs, he was a threat to Jacob's reality and Jacob didn't care if his brother was speaking the truth, he just wanted to destroy that threat so that nothing would change for him and he wouldn't have to face uncomfortable facts.

If you think about it Jacob is a man of faith while MIB is the man of science. Jacob never questioned his mother and simply blindly followed her. Jacob blindly had faith in mankind's ability to be good. He never questions. He just believes. Meanwhile, MIB questioned life beyond the island and wanted to know where he came from (scientists question). MIB then manipulated others kinda like how scientists manipulate variables in their experiments. Finally, MIB really does experiment to find ways off the island.

See, I don't think Jacob believes in mankind's ability to be good, otherwise he would have left the teachings of his mother instead of defending and protecting them. Maybe he's changed his mind after centuries on an island. Maybe his point is to prove to MiB that people aren't worth fighting over. Maybe they've been switching sides all along and takign turns playing.

I agree Mother decided to have them both guard the island. The island needs them both. It needs someone like Jacob to have faith in it. But it also needs someone like MIB who is willing to question and manipulate. Blindly following either path can lead to disaster (as this show as demonstrated on more than one occasion). But strike a balance between faith and logic and things will generally turn out ok.

This makes sense, even though I'm not clear on the roles of both players yet.

Mimmilina:

I wondered about MiB and Jacob too, but I think after the episode when Smokey tried to blow up the sub, it's clear he is evil/bad/selfish. MiB did lie. He didn't want everyone to leave the island with him, he wanted to kill them. He also lied to Claire about where her baby was. He lied to Sawyer about helping him leave the island. Mother tells MiB that Jacob can't lie, but tells MiB he is not like that, ie he is able to lie (as is Mother). When has Jacob lied? He may have not told everyone everything (as in Alpert's case), but I don't think he has lied.

I've been thinking that if MiB did make it on the sub with the Losties, then he would have dismantled the bomb or defused it in some other way. They would have proven themselves by taking him along and there would be no need to kill them. Or, his intention IS to kill them all (including himself), removing any candidates and protectors, and ending the game once and for all.

Two more epsiodes and we'll all probably find out how far off-base we all were.

[save lilo!]

So MiB's body definitely died, but then how did Jacob and him have that conversation on the beach about finding a loophole? It's not like Sayid/Ben when they went into the water, they are living in their natural-born bodies, while MiB's body decomposed. I am sure I am overlooking some minor detail and/or thinking too much about this.

I was totally annoyed at how gullible Jacob was. He just seemed to have no purpose or defining qualities.

[angelaudie]

Well, there's always been some questions about Kate. Is she really an Other, a Lostie, something else? We don't know enough yet to know if he was truly lying.

I think he would have told anyone that. It had nothing to do with Kate herself. Besides wouldn't a person who really cared about Claire tell her the truth? All he had to do is assure Claire that Aaron was with Kate and he was probably safe. Instead, he let Claire go nuts and encouraged her to hate Jacob's followers. Smokey have justified his actions by telling himself that giving Claire something to hate helps her hold on but at the end of the day it looks he did this for his own selfish reasons (give Jacob one less follower and to manipulate Claire to do his bidding).

But I'm saying MiB is protecting the *light* from Jacob, not protecting people from Jacob. Jacob isn't a threat off island, but MiB away from the island puts the light in danger.

To me that would have been a dumb move on Mother's part since she knows MIB wants to leave the island and she had to know he would do whatever it takes to get it. Plus, MIB has no idea where the light is or even what it is yet Jacob does. Why show Jacob how to get to the light if she feared he would destroy it? Mother had the most powerful weapon of all-- Jacob's blind devotion to her. All she had to say is, "Don't go down there!" and he wouldn't. This is the guy that couldn't lie to her about a simple board game after all!

But if someone is inherently good, why would they have bouts of violence? There's no compassion or empathy there. Jacob didn't attack his brother because he posed a threat to all that's good and holy. He attacked him because he himself is weak. MiB was destroying his worldview, his beliefs, he was a threat to Jacob's reality and Jacob didn't care if his brother was speaking the truth, he just wanted to destroy that threat so that nothing would change for him and he wouldn't have to face uncomfortable facts.

I'm not suggesting Jacob himself is inherently good. He was, after all, born to a perfectly normal woman. He's not perfect. But I do think he's the lesser of two evils. Jacob lashed out at MIB because his worldview was being challenged and that is certainly bad. But MIB kills people simply because he can. Which is worse?

See, I don't think Jacob believes in mankind's ability to be good, otherwise he would have left the teachings of his mother instead of defending and protecting them. Maybe he's changed his mind after centuries on an island. Maybe his point is to prove to MiB that people aren't worth fighting over. Maybe they've been switching sides all along and takign turns playing.

Jacob told Richard that he believes MIB is wrong in his belief that it's in people's nature to be bad which is why he brings people to island. Miles also stated that Jacob had faith that Ben would do the right thing. Jacob's problem is he believes he shouldn't have to tell people to do the right thing. Now, I do believe Jacob's view of right and wrong is skewed (how couldn't it be after being raised by Mother?) but overall it does appear he believes you should just be able to do what is right without being told.

Really neither Jacob or MIB are really the greatest people. MIB will kill you once you are no longer useful to him and Jacob will go off on you without telling you how exactly you've offended him. With that said, I would take my chances with Jacob. At least Jacob doesn't have a history of killing people for kicks or because they are no longer useful.

I found the bond between the brothers very moving. The way MiB wanted Jacob to come with him, the way Jacob looked so torn between the only mother he'd ever known and his brother... And then later, Jacob's real grief when he carried his dead brother to the cave. I found the whole episode quite moving. Even Mother seemed more tragic and sad than ferocious, in spite of her actions. I really appreciate that this show shies away from making characters pure evil or pure good. And of course they all have shitty childhoods. Mommy issues AND daddy issues.

I wonder if the reason why Smokey gets so aggravated by seeing the images of Jacob as a boy because it forces him to remember a time he loved his brother and the good times they shared.

Two more epsiodes and we'll all probably find out how far off-base we all were.

Hee! So true! We'll all be here after the finale and be dumbfounded what they came up with. Hopefully we'll be dumbfounded in a good way and not a bad way!

[hikertrash]

May 13, 2010 0:57:35 GMT -4 save lilo! said:

So MiB's body definitely died, but then how did Jacob and him have that conversation on the beach about finding a loophole? It's not like Sayid/Ben when they went into the water, they are living in their natural-born bodies, while MiB's body decomposed. I am sure I am overlooking some minor detail and/or thinking too much about this.

I was totally annoyed at how gullible Jacob was. He just seemed to have no purpose or defining qualities.

I think MiB can appear as himself because he can take on the form of anyone who died on the island.

[Deleted]

Very interesting episode. I think we are destined not to have most of our questions answered. Definitely agree that the light is the Well of Souls, Fount of Knowledge, whatever makes us human and inquisitive, which is why the Mother said men had a little of it but always wanted more. I don't think it's inherently good, it just is. And I don't think the MiB destroyed it entirely. I think what was left of it was protected by the Temple --specifically the pool Sayid went into. Now that that is presumably gone, keeping MiB on the island is even more important.

What would be interesting would be sort of a back series of the history of the development of the island. Why were Ilana and her colleagues chosen as protectors? Who built the foot? How did Jacob set the criteria for a candidate? Interesting that Hurley has the ability to talk to the dead, like MiB, Locke had such blnd faith, like Jacob, Jack and Sawyer both have highly developed personal morals, Sun and Jin, the ability for extreme self-sacrifice. And why was Kate eliminated from the pool?

I also think it's strange that Aaron hasn't figured into the story more. Other than Alex, he was the only baby born on the island in a very long time and he was a boy. You would think he'd be central to the story.

This may be obvious now, but it looks like the finale is going to be less about our original characters and more about what happens to the island. If the island is so important to human existence, it's interesting that it's absence is apparently not being manifested in the Alt-verse.

[roseland]

So MiB's body definitely died, but then how did Jacob and him have that conversation on the beach about finding a loophole?

I agree with hikertrash. If MiB can appear as Locke, why can't he appear as his original self?

[Martini Girl]

I'm definitely in the minority, but I really liked Tuesday's episode.

Here's a link to a great article from Damon and Carlton:

[hikertrash]

This may be obvious now, but it looks like the finale is going to be less about our original characters and more about what happens to the island. If the island is so important to human existence, it's interesting that it's absence is apparently not being manifested in the Alt-verse.

I got the impression from the Darlton interview linked (and other things I've heard them say lately) that the finale is going to focus mostly on the characters and giving them all an ending.

After the S5 finale, I wondered about Jacob and MiB's American-accented English, and this episode has me wondering even more. Mother and bio-Mother spoke Latin at first, then inexplicably switched to modern American English. What gives with this shit? The writers have never had a problem making us read subtitles, and they are (usually) consistent with languages and accents, so I have to think that there is some significance to it. When the time traveling stuff started, there was a theory bandied about that some of the Losties would somehow end up going way way back in time. I think the theory sprung from people speculating that Aaron would turn out to be Jacob. I never bought the Aaron-as-Jacob thing (and now we know that it isn't true), but now I'm wondering if that wonky theory might turn out to be true. Someone had to teach these people English! This is going to be one of those things that will drive me absolutely nuts if it remains an unsolved mystery. Ugh.

During my first viewing of the episode I was sort of irritated with how things were going, but watching it again made me like it a lot more. I had such huge expectations for finally seeing Jacob and MiB's origins that I think I was too focused on What It All Means and I didn't really appreciate it for what it was: just another backstory, albeit an important one.

The thing I most enjoyed was how Mark Pellegrino and Titus Welliver played their characters as adults. Both of them, and Jacob especially, never had any exposure to the outside world and the kinds of experiences that people usually go through to reach maturity. They have the ultimate case of arrested development. Even as grown men they're sort of petulant and single-minded, the way kids can be. They even had this way of talking that was sort of little boy-ish. It was subtle, but I thought it was a nice touch.

[Deleted]

May 13, 2010 13:32:44 GMT -4 roseland said:

So MiB's body definitely died, but then how did Jacob and him have that conversation on the beach about finding a loophole?

I agree with hikertrash. If MiB can appear as Locke, why can't he appear as his original self?

Ilana made the comment that since Jacob died, Smokey is "stuck" as Locke. Seems he can still turn into Smokey, but not "mimic" other people anymore. She made the comment kind of off-hand, "he's stuck like this", when they left the foot in one of the early episodes. Another rule to make sure we got lots of Terry O'Quinn this year?