The Un-US Politics Discussion Scenario

[prisma]

Dang, Scotland. I don’t know what to make of this latest news with the arrest.

[batmom]

Manitoba elects Canada's first First Nations premier. Honestly a huge shock (to me) that it was Manitoba. Every Canadian province has a poor track record with prejudice towards First Nations people, but Manitoba always seemed to stand out as worse. Here's to change!

[Carolinian]

Sometimes it's hard for me, as an American, to conceptualize how small Israel is. Only 800 square miles. That's smaller than the largest county in my state of North Carolina.

[cremetangerine82]

The situation in Israel and the Palestinian Territories is so tenuous and I don't know how I can "root" for any military or paramilitary force. Hamas and the IDF are unwilling for any diplomatic options and seem indifferent to civilian deaths that include children. It's so tragic.

[Ridha]

Diplomatic options for squatters and thieves? Would love to see the negotiations that would happen if you’re sitting in your house, and some third person gifts YOUR house to someone else and forces you out, then calls you a terrorist for trying to get the squatter out. Gaslighting and cry bullying to the hilt. Yet the lobby is so ridiculously strong no one calls them out the way they called out Apartheid South Africa.

[cremetangerine82]

The United States being against a ceasefire in Gaza is depressing and disgusting. Carpet bombing and a land invasion are going to hurt civilians and hostages more than Hamas. A ceasefire, humanitarian aid, and peaceful hostage releases are needed immediately. This IDF military action is becoming more and more disproportional.

[Ridha]

Disproportional? DISPROPORTIONAL? That’s the adjective Americans use for this murderous genocide. Wow I honestly don’t know if you guys are as ignorant and uninformed of facts and history that accounts for your skewed take as the rest of the world says you are, or as evil as the rest of the world says you are. Lol and as an aside not that it’s the main point by a long shot but it’s hilarious that you idiots don’t have free healthcare or education and vote in governments that send 4 billion a year to a (murderous occupier thieving) regime with both. And yes I’m sure this will get me banned, that’s fine go back to your echo chamber. It’s not like scores families of Palestinians have been wiped out by Murica’s pet attack dog in the Middle East in the moments it takes to type the word disproportional.

[cremetangerine82]

I said the actions of Israel's military is disproportional. No need to get upset and accuse all Americans as indifferent and ignorant to these horrible actions. I can't control how much of the country's budget goes to keep perpetuating this inequality.

[Ridha]

But you - and all voters - can. There’s a reason that on the right and left, all American politicians have one thing in common; their 100% support of Israel. The only logical reason of that is that the voting public approves, or they THINK the voting public approves. The day the polls show the pundits that the average American does not support, and would not support a politician that supports Israel, the political and financial support would stop. But what I want to understand is, why IS that support there in the polls of America voter issues?

I will say that disproportionate is such a massive understatement (would anyone dare describe Hitler as “disproportional”?) that I did feel it speaks to some indifference or lack of knowledge about what’s going on. But yes you were to some extent condemning and I suppose if I/we on the East don’t have dialogue with at least those who do then nothing ever moves forward. I’ve taken a breath now, and I would genuinely like to understand some takes on that side of the world if you or anyone else would like to comment. I’m feeling very angry but I don’t want to be in my own echo chamber, and so I have put some questions below to better understand how this could be allowed to happen. The below questions are not meant as a gotcha to anyone here or arguing for the sake of arguing, but I’m trying to understand what the West is not seeing in what to the East looks like a complete Emperor’s New Clothes/Hunger Games situation. The commentators that for cultural issues that I follow and who’s takes I usually completely agree with (I won’t take their all names because they are derided here, especially they like Bill Maher have the most nonsensical takes on this). Is there some piece of the puzzle/factual information that you are missing (not taught in schools), or conversely are we missing something? So in the hopes of trying to not react in anger but try to understand how this is happening in 2023 Wokedom, here are my questions. For the purposes of these questions by “You” I mean whichever poster would care to reply as well as that posters friends, family, social circle, etc.

1. Are you aware that Israelis were essentially granted someone else’s land by someone who it didn’t belong to? What right did the British (and while it was the British that initially granted the land, it is American backing of their staunchest ally in the subsequent years that have given those European Jews smack dab in the Middle East the carte blanche to do as they will) have to grant Jews the land of Palestinians?

To me the analogy (I use analogies to try and find common ground and also stick to the relevant facts rather than anyone getting into exceptionalism arguments) is one of: Miranda is living in her home in Brooklyn. Carrie and some other Mean Girls have been a bitch to Aiden over the years, and later on they feel guilty about it but also don’t want to listen to Aiden’s complaints. She agrees that Aiden needs to own his own home to feel better. And also wants him out of her vicinity in Manhattan. Aiden has often crashed on Miranda’s when he and Carrie have a fight. Carrie ‘grants’ him… Miranda’s home?

Please let me know if as you see it this happened in some other way.

2. People in the West are rightly disgusted by the 4 year holocaust by some of the West to the Jews. Yet they seem fairly meh about the 75 year holocaust that started on the Arabs by the Jews in 1948. Is it not aware that the Jews with American funding were evicting Arabs from homes, killing them, driving them out, and then taking even more land than they had initially been (illegally) granted? To continue the analogy, Aiden who has PTSD over Carrie’s bullshit is a terror to Miranda who is now living in a dog kennel in her own former backyard. In much the same way that statistically a significant number of paedophiles have themselves been the victim of sexual abuse. And Aiden cry bullies and makes himself out to be the victim whenever Miranda tries to throw rocks through the windows to get back in her own former house. Do you disagree with any portion of this analogy, and if so which part. If you agree that Palestinians have been subjected to a 75 year holocaust within their own land, then what accounts for the very different reactions to it? Seth Rogen himself said as a Jew growing up he was “fed huge lies about Israel… they made it seem as if there was empty land sitting there for the taking… didn’t mention to us that oh yeah there were people already living there who we kicked out”. I absolutely love that he had the integrity to voice this, but who was telling him this? Are the textbooks different there? How did he labour under this misconception for so long?

3. As Biden himself once said in his youth; If !sra*l “did not exist, America would have to create it to protect her interests in the Middle East. How does the average American justify this meddling by America in other regions affairs? Oil prices? Fear of domestic security? Aren’t you aware that by funding the wiping out of families there is more vulnerability to domestic security then if you just stayed out and focused on your own country?

4. I get that the Jews despite being a tiny minority statistically are in every important lobby (finance world, acting, screenwriting, politics) and therefor have an utterly disproportionate leverage over politicians, who in any event also want influence in the ME. But how does the average American justify this support for Israel? To again ask, in my heated post above, I genuinely do want to know: how is the average American voter ok with 4 billion usd in aid going to a country which has free healthcare and education and is more well off on every measure, when you yourselves don’t have free healthcare and education. Wouldn’t you rather have that spent in your own country? I follow the Democrats and and Republicans debates and across the board their “Israel is our staunchest ally” even if they disagree on everything else under the sun, is the one constant. Why? It would make statistical sense of pandering to the voter base if they said “Africa is our strongest ally” given that black Americans make up a larger proportion of America’s population than Jews. But why, in order to get elected, does every American parrot the unconditional friendship and support as though they are the Lacey Chabert character to Rachel McAdams? What importance does it carry for the average voter? Why are you ok with 30% of your aid going to 0.2% of the population?

Again these are not meant to be gotcha questions; hey it’s possible that my people or textbooks are wrong. If so let me know where the above analogies fall but specific corrections (as opposed to lectures of what Jews have endured through the centuries as if it was the Arab world who had to make to them for it rather than their actual original bullies) would be helpful.

[phillipa]

I don't disagree with your analogy Ridha, but you have to understand something about American politics: we don't have a ton of choice. We're not a parliamentary system where there are a lot of parties, each of whom has their own unique combination of positions. We have two parties that actually have a chance at winning elections. Yes, the Green party exists, but they don't have wide support, so voting for them means you are effectively throwing away your vote. It sucks, but that's the reality.

Now, that being said, there are politicians that are not 100% pro-Israel. They're very anti-foreign aid in general, including aid to Ukraine, where the situation is a lot more black and white. They believe America should focus on America, and let other countries figure their own sh*t out. Problem is, a lot of these politicians are also very anti-choice, anti-environment, pro-policies that benefit rich people and corporations, and so on. When American voters have to choose, they face a Sophie's choice: either vote in the politicians who would take away American women's rights, destroy the environment, and widen the gap between rich and poor, or vote in the politicians who are mostly pro-Israel. Given that choice, Americans are probably going to vote based on issues closer to home. That makes it look like we condone Israel's actions, when really, most Americans may not like it, but it's not the only issue on the ballot. And it's easy for foreigners to criticize us for voting the way we do, but they aren't the ones affected by the domestic consequences of our elections. It's a lot to ask to tell someone they have to choose to help someone on the other side of the world at the expense of their own children.

Opposition to Israel is growing though. There's a Time article here that talks about how politicians are increasingly out of step with voters on the issue of Israel. It actually goes against your claim that:

The day the polls show the pundits that the average American does not support, and would not support a politician that supports Israel, the political and financial support would stop.

Politicians being out of step with voters isn't actually all that uncommon. Most Republicans (and nearly all Democrats) support some form of legalized abortion, but hard-liner Republicans insist they want a full ban, beginning at conception, no exceptions. And they keep getting elected because of what I mentioned earlier, people begrudgingly vote for them because it's either that or politicians on the other side who they disagree with on many more issues. You may not like it, but that's our political system, for better or worse.

And there have been a lot of pro-Palestinian protests in America in the last few weeks. So I don't think it's fair to call us "idiots" and "evil" and living in an echo chamber. The reality is a lot more complicated than us all being ignorant. I know the rest of the world likes to think of us as being dumb and selfish and jingoistic, but that's not the case.