The Un-US Politics Discussion Scenario

[Ridha]

Ok thanks. Some food for thought.

Could you elaborate though on how the Ukrainian Russia conflict is more “black and white” for you?

Also what is your opinion as to the reasons why public opinion led to such rapid RAPID changes in the law and political rhetoric for MeToo movements, BLM, (imo far less black and white issues) eg changes to the statute of limitation in Danny Masterson case, prosecutions of the powerful and popular, yet there is supposedly a time lag between the politicians on both the left and right being in step with the public on this issue? The article you linked I read with interest, but have to say that the percentages are still pretty shockingly high in terms of supporting Israel.

I absolutely have zero issue for Americans to put their own children before those on the other side of the world. Any citizen and parent would and should. But the cognitive dissonance of that for me lies in both security wise and financial wise, your children would (in the opinion of the East) be safer and richer if America was to stop political and financial support to Israel. Does the West not see it that way? Or do they but are there too many Zionists in power? If so, why was that power not an obstacle in other social movements; were people less vocal? Or are politicians more leveraged on this issue?

There is by the way a common theory here, that the Mossad which is some say the best and richest intelligence in the world, have blackmail material on almost everyone in the deep state in America. I have always put that down to a crackpot conspiracy theory. But frankly the way US politicians in both parties talk about Israel (even in the article you linked for instance, the democrat who was quoted at most only denounced Netanyahu, not the arrogance and wrong of the very idea of Israel), it looks the way the govt leaders of Kim Jong Un clap like captive seals for their lives when he speaks. It really is starting to look that way, as if Israel has the political equivalent of kiddie porn pictures (the last taboo there) of everyone in the left and right in America. In almost every other country even the original creators like UK, you have mainstream politicians being vocally pro Palestine for years now. Jeremy Corbyn, George Galloway and more. They are of course denounced as being “anti-Semitic” which has become a weaponised institutional gaslighting term, but America is the only outlier where no politician on either left or right will do more than at most denounce Netanyahu, they will never question Israel’s right to exist in the first place which some politicians (not necessarily in power but still) of other countries have. Any insight as to why that is the case?

[phillipa]

Today's a work day so I don't have enough time to give these issues the attention to detail that they deserve. I'll only say re: Ukraine and Russia, Russia invaded with zero provocation and zero threat to their own interests, other than the possible spread of NATO, which is ironic considering that their invasion pushed Finland to join, thus dramatically increasing the amount of border they have with NATO countries. Putin is getting old and he wants to reform the Soviet Union before he dies. He has made noise about Poland and the Baltics. I say it's black and white because Ukraine did nothing to deserve what's happening other than simply existing. If China invaded Taiwan, I would also consider that black and white.

The Israel-Palestine conflict by contrast is less black and white because while I don't disagree that Palestinians have a right to their own sovereignty, they have Hamas has committed atrocities against civilians. In fact, they have specifically targeted them in some cases. That's a war crime. If they had only attacked military personnel and targets, that's fair game. But kidnapping civilians at a music festival is not. Yes I know Israel has done similar attacks on civilians. Two wrongs don't make a right. While I sympathize with the plight of Palestinians, I don't completely consider them "the good guys" either, whereas the Ukrainians, I do. That's just my opinion and you're free to disagree.

And as for American children being safer if we stayed out of conflicts in the Middle East, again, you're probably right, but that safety is indirect and not as easy to see immediate benefits. Compare that gun control, something very much in the news right now. If a politician supports a ban on assault rifles but is pro-Israel, then a concerned American parent is probably going to care more about the former rather than the latter, because of the immediate threat of mass shootings. 597 people in America have died in mass shootings as of October 26. Meanwhile, zero have died due to terrorism.

Conspiracy theories about Jewish control of American politicians is anti-Semitic nonsense. It's not gaslighting to call it what it is.

Edit: because Hamas != Palestinians.

[batmom]

I appreciate that turning the American political boat may be very slow but I do think that Americans (and Canadians) could start by pressuring the media to report more accurately. I have been disgusted by the coverage and the refusal to acknowledge this is the result of a 70 years of oppression and genocide in Palestine that we have all been turning a blind eye to for *reasons*

[ratscabies]

At risk of sounding flip on this (I am killing time at a trucking stop waiting for someone to return to the shipping office and notice me), so I need to be quick.

Point 1-Ukraine being black and white: Ukraine gave up it’s nuclear arsenal in exchange for agreements that we would protect them if/when Russia invaded. They did, and we are.

Point 2-“pro” Israel politicians: A LOT of the most conservative, rabidly “pro” Israel guys in America are only in favor of collecting the Jews in Israel to accelerate the Rapture, wherein Jews will be converted or, I don’t know, vaporized by Jesus…?

[Deleted]

Oct 30, 2023 10:11:24 GMT -4 phillipa said:

Conspiracy theories about Jewish control of American politicians is anti-Semitic nonsense. It's not gaslighting to call it what it is.

Thank you.

[Ridha]

So when Russia invades Ukraine which used to be a part of them, and China invades Taiwan they’re both black and white, as Ukrainians and Taiwanese had done nothing but exist. But in 1948 (and let us never forget that is the cause of this, not Hamas) when Europeans Jews on the other side invade Palestine, that’s… somehow not black and white? Palestinians were doing nothing but existing either when this all started.

I’m curious as to where the distinction is; the 70 years that have passed? If so then I suppose all Russia and China have to do is ride out the decades before people start saying “it’s complicated/it’s nuance”. Yeah no, it’s really not.

Or is it not the 70 years that have elapsed but the facts that Jews can do no wrong post holocaust which you guys did not us. It’s the Jews cry bullying that’s gaslighting, not calling shit out as anti-Semitic. You all want to make it up to them do it on your own dime and your own backyard. You say that on the one hand you’re not responsible for your democratically voted in governments, and made some fair points about govt being out of step. But as long as the average person does not consider Palestine every bit as black and white a situation as Ukraine and Taiwan (in fact more so) and using “it’s AnTi-sEmiTic” as some don’t go there weapon, it’s clear that the govt is not too out of step with their citizens.

[phillipa]

I don't want to argue anymore.

I'll only say this: Palestinians are not the only ones with claims to that land. This is Jerusalem we're talking about. That's the birthplace of the Jewish faith, and it was born a hell of a lot longer ago than 1948. The post-WWII UN did not invent Israel, and Zionism existed before WWI even, because Jews have been subjected to pogroms not just in Europe, but in the Middle East as well, for millenia. I might not agree with their methods sometimes, but considering they've been hunted for most of human history, I don't blame them for deciding enough was enough and fighting back.

[ladyboy]

Let's see how much Americans believe in the original right to land when the Native Americans decide to fight back and take their land back.

[phillipa]

That's kind of my point though. When you start talking about who has the most right to a certain area of land, how far back do you go? I get that it's not politically correct to ask questions like this but, does a Native American have more right to a piece of land than someone else, even though no one alive today was around when the US was colonized? Same for Canada, same for Australia and New Zealand, same for Okinawa, the list goes on. I'm of French descent, do I get to be angry at Italians because Julius Caesar killed Vercingetorix and slaughtered the Gauls two thousand years ago? Do we do genetic testing on people and move them according to where their genetic lineage originates?

All I'm saying is that land disputes are messy and often have no clear right or wrong answer. Blood and Soil conversations get ugly very quickly, and 9+ million Israelis (and 330+ million Americans, and 38 million Canadians, and 25 million Australians, etc.) aren't going to just disappear. Even if Israel ceased to exist tomorrow, where are its people supposed to go?

[Ridha]

America.

Or Russia (who officially offered a province at the time). But the Jews wanted to be in Palestine never mind that ethnically and culturally they stuck out like a sore thumb and continue to. Even once they exterminate every single remaining Palestinian which they are pretty much on course to do, how do they or the West think that having a bunch of Europeans (racially and culturally and legislatively, with LGBTQ and bikinis in music festivals*) in the middle of the Middle East is feasible?

*To be clear, either of these things are for the society and region to decide, and I’m not making any moral judgements. But just as I’m assuming that the bulk of you when you travel to more conservative regions adjust somewhat accordingly simply out of respect (“When in Rome”), one cannot expect that one country will on the one hand insist they want to be bang in the middle of a conservative region - despite having the options of other regions - and yet flout all the cultural norms of the region and expect the rest of the region not to consider it incendiary. But in any case that’s a secondary argument that would be more of a factor in the hypothetical situation that the land was lying empty. Since it was not despite what the Jewish lobby likes to have its youth and others in the West believe, the main fundamental point remains:

They! Stole! Land! And! Murdered! People! At! A! Time! When! It! Was! Against! Accepted! Laws! And! Norms!



It’s true about the various changes of land over the centuries. The difference though is that one judges actions by the *standards of the time*. Whether cousin marriage, child marriage, or empire conquering. For better or for worse the other colonisations/conquering/invasions were done at a time when “might is right” was a generally accepted concept.

That is no longer the case now. And it wasn’t the case by 1948 either (which is when many former colonies were gaining independence and state hood). The other invasions didn’t happen in contravention of the internationally widely accepted mores and laws of the time, and this did. They made an exception to the laws and norms of the time because the oppressor was “poor influential rich Jews”, and they made an exception because the victim was the “lesser Arabs”.

The Jews “Never Again” slogan is laughable when the *very next year* (1948) Zionists were instructing a Palestinian Arab baker to put his baby son in the baking oven. When he refused they threw him in themselves, and then said “your son needs you” and threw him in too. This is all evidenced in documentaries that have interviews with the actual Zionists soldiers. If this was all happening in 1348 or 748 then it’s sad but according to the laws of the time it happened. By 1948 though and certainly by 2023 though it is against all international law and norms and they are only nevertheless ignoring it and giving Israel a relative pass instead of allying on a war against today’s Hitler only because of who the parties involved are.