The Un-US Politics Discussion Scenario

[cremetangerine82]

I understand the anger, Ridha, but Americans are powerless to do much. It's difficult to get people to care about other countries and it's difficult to vote politicians out who continue to fund the war machine. The House bill may not have bipartisan support. Fortunately, injured Palestinians and foreign nationals are now allowed to flee Gaza into Egypt. I don't know what the discourse on Black Lives Matter and Mossad blackmail material is about, but that's not pertinent right now. Being upset with the IDF is understandable, but hate speech against Jewish people is never OK; far too many of pro-Palestinians have stooped to that, which is revolting. What I hope is that Israelis don't have to worry about more dead children and Palestinians don't have to worry about more dead children.

[lizziebeth730]

Oct 30, 2023 9:44:27 GMT -4 Ridha said:

Also what is your opinion as to the reasons why public opinion led to such rapid RAPID changes in the law and political rhetoric for MeToo movements, BLM, (imo far less black and white issues) eg changes to the statute of limitation in Danny Masterson case, prosecutions of the powerful and popular, yet there is supposedly a time lag between the politicians on both the left and right being in step with the public on this issue? The article you linked I read with interest, but have to say that the percentages are still pretty shockingly high in terms of supporting Israel.

First of all, I'm not sure exactly what the media in your country is telling you, but, as an American, I can tell you that there are 50 states, all have different laws, and there has been no massive defining discernable change with regards to BLM or MeToo. People of color aren't suddenly all "NWA was wrong! The police are great!" and as a woman I'm not walking in parking garages suddenly carefree and unconcerned for my safety. I'm not unconcerned about harassment at work or in public. I cant speak to the law changes that may or may not have occurred in CA with regards to the Masterson case, but statute of limitations in all states for crimes are all different. I mean for Gods sake, the frickin epicenter of the Catholic Church pedophile scandal only fairly recently changed their laws on the statute of limitations for CSA.

I'd say the prevailing feeling about the situation is... "we want and need Israel as an ally in the region. We want to protect the Jewish people. We also recognize that the Palestinians have gotten the fuzzy end of the lollipop and we need a two state solution" I don't think anyone particularly likes Netanyahu. I think most people think he's a raging asshole and like most GenX and Millenials, our curse is that we must wait until these fuckers finally die off cause THEY'LL NEVER RETIRE. So there won't be any meaningful change until their gone. It's a waiting game. I don't think Hamas has any "support" outside of 'I don't agree with their tactics, but I can sympathize"

There is by the way a common theory here, that the Mossad which is some say the best and richest intelligence in the world, have blackmail material on almost everyone in the deep state in America. I have always put that down to a crackpot conspiracy theory. But frankly the way US politicians in both parties talk about Israel (even in the article you linked for instance, the democrat who was quoted at most only denounced Netanyahu, not the arrogance and wrong of the very idea of Israel), it looks the way the govt leaders of Kim Jong Un clap like captive seals for their lives when he speaks. It really is starting to look that way, as if Israel has the political equivalent of kiddie porn pictures (the last taboo there) of everyone in the left and right in America. In almost every other country even the original creators like UK, you have mainstream politicians being vocally pro Palestine for years now. Jeremy Corbyn, George Galloway and more. They are of course denounced as being “anti-Semitic” which has become a weaponised institutional gaslighting term, but America is the only outlier where no politician on either left or right will do more than at most denounce Netanyahu, they will never question Israel’s right to exist in the first place which some politicians (not necessarily in power but still) of other countries have. Any insight as to why that is the case?

Look my husband has pretty high clearance. Like "can't bring shit like an apple watch into his work" level of clearance. Like "his spouse has to get a background check by the feds" level of clearance. I would LOVE to know what Mossad thinks they got on us? I can only imagine. "Lizziebeth's kids are apparently going to the championship for soccer and her daughter has been begging for crop tops but she keeps telling her she can't dress like a trollop in fourth grade. Fourth grader reports not knowing what trollop is Her husband also reports that he can't find the ketchup but as it turns out in was right there on the door like she said it was all along. Perhaps we can leverage their household with soccer balls, crop tops and unlimited ketchup"

FYI, its not the last taboo. We have plenty of things that our society still pretty distinctly frowns upon. So you can take a seat on that one

[Oxynia]

Let's keep the cool, please.

[phillipa]

9 million people, who ethnically definitely do not stick out like a sore thumb -- I repeat, this is Jerusalem, and they were there long before Islam even existed -- are not going to leave. Not to America, not to Russia, not anywhere. They're there. Get used to it. The two state solution is the best way to achieve peace and stop the cycle of suffering and dying.

I don't support Hamas. I don't like Netanyahu. I don't like how Israel is carpet bombing, though considering that Hamas hides among civilians, they don't have much choice. You can't have 1400 people get killed and not do anything. Jews learned a long time ago what happens when they don't defend themselves. This is not genocide, if it were, Israel would be invading the West Bank, and they aren't.

And I think the situation is complicated and most definitely not black and white because both groups have 1000+ year old claims to the land, and in the aftermath of WWI, the area was partitioned to the British, who in turn partitioned it to the Israelis (who didn't steal anything) and the Palestinians, and things got messy, and stayed messy.

[cremetangerine82]

US Secretary of State Antony Blinken urges Israel to protect Gaza civilians as death toll climbs.

A "humanitarian pause" is truly necessary right now. I don't understand this.

[Ridha]

Well to quote an above passive aggressive statement of “I don’t know why I’m bothering but here goes”, I’ll be equally disingenuous and still weigh in.

As long as people are saying empty words for peace without acknowledging and rectifying the root cause of this issue, it’s the equivalent of saying “thoughts and prayers” (instead of just fixing the root cause of banning guns) at one of America’s high school massacres. You don’t like it when you hear people say that right? It’s become like an insult added to injury taunt, right? Well wishing for peace between home invaders and owners is the same.

This “conflict” is not 2 neighbours, Mr Stein and Mr Yusuf both of whom legally bought and moved in to their 2 separate houses on the same street, not being able to get on, which is what wishfully wishing for peace implies. That WOULD be a situation where peace is absolutely possible and they just need to both let their complaints go. This is how this conflict is often treated. As 2 neighbours. No.

This is Mr Yusuf living in his own house, and Mr Stein coming along (Mr Smith generously helped him pack), and kicking Mr Yusuf out at gunpoint in a home invasion. There are 2 people, 1 house. There’s no heartfelt sigh “wishing for peace” because it simply can’t happen; there is not enough land in that region to fit both populations/accommodate both the owners and the gaslighting home invaders who do mental gymnastics that for one period (NOT originally which was erroneously stated upthread, and which might make a small amount of difference - I would certainly for instance support Native Americans reclaiming their land from you, as they WERE the ORIGINALS) but at some *in between* point more than a thousand years ago.

The ONLY way for peace is to rectify the original wrong, not say “well the home invaders are here now, get used to it, where do you want them to go”, the third of which is the most gaslighting phrase of all in this.

Until that original wrong is rectified, and Israelis are relocated to a new land gifted by Mr Trump, there. Will. Be. No. Peace.

And if you want to kill time by just “wishing for peace” until Mr Stein kills Mr Yusuf, and think that will solve the 2 people 1 house issue then you can do that. That is essentially what’s happening. But at least just don’t gaslight by pretending Mr Stein has ANY claim to the land, or that Mr Trump had ANY right to ‘authorise’ Mr Stein to break in. Just own the fact that you’re complicit in a home invasion. Whether it was 70 years ago or 70 days ago Mr Stein is a squatter.

It’s one thing to not be able to do much about what your government is doing. It’s another to not even have moral clarity on the issue. And frankly that lack of clarity or “it’s complicated but I wish for peace” is exactly what the government is picking up on.

And once Mr Yusuf is dead, all who stood by and sighed for peace while saying “it’s complicated” “well where do you expect the home invader to go” and wished for peace between a home invader and the original owner might get lucky. Mr Yusuf’s friends and family might decide to get over it. They might just accept some renovations to their own houses to help jog their amnesia along. Or they might not.

Thoughts and prayers for all though.

[ladyboy]

So you’re saying the only solution is to get rid of Israel entirely? I disagree with a LOT of their politics - their settlements going unchecked for decades is just insanity- but you can’t roll back the clock to a previous time and think it’s going to reset to that point. That’s what MAGA are selling - let’s go back to the 1950s, when men were men and everyone knew their place. Israel is here now, and that’s the reality any solution has to accommodate. Israel’s government shouldn’t be creating settlements to take more land, and the non-governmental* group Hamas shouldn’t perform terror attacks. We’re in a situation now where both are happening, and there’s no political will, seemingly anywhere, to change the dynamic.

*for lack of a better wording. I know this makes them sound like they have a presence on MeetUp or something. I just wanted to finish the post without parsing every single word, although I’m sure it will be picked apart anyway.

[Ridha]

Yes I am. Not getting rid of, but relocated, certainly.

Passage of time does not validate a crime. It’s arbitrary to put a statute of limitations on theft of land or murder of people.

If tomorrow you were kicked out of your house by some homeless person who had rich powerful friends; would 1 year later or 70 years later make a difference to change your right or your children’s right to get back into your home?

The clock can indeed still be reset, and past wrongs (especially those that remain an open wound) can indeed still be righted.

[ladyboy]

I just don’t think that’s a viable scenario. And to present it as the “only” solution is very narrow. It eliminates finding other options and creates a false binary- either Israel is moved OR we remain in this untenable situation. I don’t think those are the only options.

[Sunnyhorse]

Nov 4, 2023 8:01:55 GMT -4 Ridha said:

Well to quote an above passive aggressive statement of “I don’t know why I’m bothering but here goes”, I’ll be equally disingenuous and still weigh in.

As long as people are saying empty words for peace without acknowledging and rectifying the root cause of this issue, it’s the equivalent of saying “thoughts and prayers” (instead of just fixing the root cause of banning guns) at one of America’s high school massacres. You don’t like it when you hear people say that right? It’s become like an insult added to injury taunt, right? Well wishing for peace between home invaders and owners is the same.

This “conflict” is not 2 neighbours, Mr Stein and Mr Yusuf both of whom legally bought and moved in to their 2 separate houses on the same street, not being able to get on, which is what wishfully wishing for peace implies. That WOULD be a situation where peace is absolutely possible and they just need to both let their complaints go. This is how this conflict is often treated. As 2 neighbours. No.

This is Mr Yusuf living in his own house, and Mr Stein coming along (Mr Smith generously helped him pack), and kicking Mr Yusuf out at gunpoint in a home invasion. There are 2 people, 1 house. There’s no heartfelt sigh “wishing for peace” because it simply can’t happen; there is not enough land in that region to fit both populations/accommodate both the owners and the gaslighting home invaders who do mental gymnastics that for one period (NOT originally which was erroneously stated upthread, and which might make a small amount of difference - I would certainly for instance support Native Americans reclaiming their land from you, as they WERE the ORIGINALS) but at some *in between* point more than a thousand years ago.

The ONLY way for peace is to rectify the original wrong, not say “well the home invaders are here now, get used to it, where do you want them to go”, the third of which is the most gaslighting phrase of all in this.

Until that original wrong is rectified, and Israelis are relocated to a new land gifted by Mr Trump, there. Will. Be. No. Peace.

And if you want to kill time by just “wishing for peace” until Mr Stein kills Mr Yusuf, and think that will solve the 2 people 1 house issue then you can do that. That is essentially what’s happening. But at least just don’t gaslight by pretending Mr Stein has ANY claim to the land, or that Mr Trump had ANY right to ‘authorise’ Mr Stein to break in. Just own the fact that you’re complicit in a home invasion. Whether it was 70 years ago or 70 days ago Mr Stein is a squatter.

It’s one thing to not be able to do much about what your government is doing. It’s another to not even have moral clarity on the issue. And frankly that lack of clarity or “it’s complicated but I wish for peace” is exactly what the government is picking up on.

And once Mr Yusuf is dead, all who stood by and sighed for peace while saying “it’s complicated” “well where do you expect the home invader to go” and wished for peace between a home invader and the original owner might get lucky. Mr Yusuf’s friends and family might decide to get over it. They might just accept some renovations to their own houses to help jog their amnesia along. Or they might not.

Thoughts and prayers for all though.

As long as you’re castigating your fellow Greecies, who can’t do a damn thing to end this conflict, Ridha, what are YOU doing to stop it? Do you see how insane that sounds?

Oxynia has asked everyone once to tone down the rhetoric in this thread. Either do it or leave, voluntarily or by way of the ban button. Enough.