Dave Chappelle

[Mutagen]

With the term "woke", I have heard it used to complain about everything from, "I got dogpiled for wearing an article of clothing from another culture that I was invited/welcomed to wear" to "a gay character existed in this movie/TV show." In other words, yes, sometimes people make stupid bullshit complaints in the name of progressiveness. Sometimes it's about virtue signaling without giving a shit about whatever group/cause you're advocating for. Sometimes people are self righteous about one thing but not another (that kind of inconsistency is something I think Dave got in the ballpark of having a good point about). But other times "wokeness" is invoked to complain about non-white, non-heterosexual, non-Christian, non cisdudes daring to exist and not "know their place." So I really, genuinely, want to know what people are talking about when they use that word. Because to me it seems to be an incredibly amorphous boogeyman.

Forgive the U.S. centric perspective, but we are about to lose abortion rights in this country. If the right to privacy is successfully attacked, gay marriage could be next. Several states are gerrymandered to fuck to disenfranchise nonwhite voters. I fucking WISH the "wokes" had the stranglehold on our culture their critics seem to think they do.

[Ridha]

May 7, 2022 17:43:19 GMT -4 petitesuite said:

Saying "your definition is wrong" while declining to provide an alternate definition is also not a persuasive or well-reasoned argument, even if you are responding to a straw man. Someone else asked you, sincerely, to explain what you meant and I notice you haven't taken the time to respond to that yet.

No I haven’t. The last time I did respond to a similarish question, I got a rap for derailing the thread. Plus in some respects I am aware I have a different world view from most of this forum on many issues. Not all, and that’s exactly the issue that most Centrists face, the position of the Right can often turn as off as much as the Left. I do know though that there’s a distinct lack of nuance and context in most topics (whether the Trans issue that Dave Chappelle has waded in to or others) with the result that there are increasingly fewer people who are Centrists, and most are either staunchly Left or Right. I’m not sure one can put it down to culture or Eastern hemisphere versus Western Hemisphere, because much of America seems to have similar views to me on those particular topics… but I don’t think they’re on this board, and I don’t want to deal with the type of withering response I’ve had when similar topics have come up in the past. So no, I won’t be stepping into the rabbit hole of giving my definition for both of the above reasons, but I will say, again, that I don’t have any issue in “respecting humanity”, and having empathy for individuals.

Also for the record, I did not say anyone’s definition was ‘wrong’. I said it was subjective, and not to ascribe a definition of not “respecting humanity” on me. So second Straw Man there.

[cremetangerine82]

Dave Chapelle needs to start telling funny jokes that don’t use marginalized people as cheap fodder for “comedy”. That’s a start in not being “Old Man Yells At Cloud For Being Trans” nonsense that isn’t worth millions of dollars from Netflix.

[Mutagen]

May 8, 2022 9:34:42 GMT -4 lordofthefries said:

May 8, 2022 7:22:40 GMT -4 Mutagen said:

Forgive the U.S. centric perspective, but we are about to lose abortion rights in this country. If the right to privacy is successfully attacked, gay marriage could be next. Several states are gerrymandered to fuck to disenfranchise nonwhite voters. I fucking WISH the "wokes" had the stranglehold on our culture their critics seem to think they do.

This is my main complaint. People are so busy being outraged at random entertainers (and occasionally normal folks) on social media that actual issues are neglected, and internet culture sets a standard of ideological purity that alienates a lot of would-be supporters and allies and frankly discredits the causes they purport to support. As an example, I think Lena Dunham's quip on abortion plays right into forced-birth advocates hands.

Well, certainly no argument that there's stupid outrage. Which is counterproductive at best and exploited by bad faith actors at worst, whether those bad faith actors are garden variety attention whores or an actual bot campaign. People need to be smart about recognizing ragebait.

At the same time... the Lena Dunham example. We're on a thread about Dave Chappelle, one of the most legendary comics of his generation, having transphobic material in his act. And criticism of that is painted as pointless, not "real", outrage. But a one-hit wonder actress best known for being an IRL troll says one shitty thing in an interview, and she's just handed a win to forced birth advocates? By that logic, isn't Dave Chappelle with his MUCH larger platform handing an even bigger win to transphobes? IMO this is the other side of the ideological policing coin -- who gets to make the decision of what's an "actual" issue that deserves energy and bandwidth, and what's a "fake outrage" issue that doesn't? I'm not suggesting there's an easy, one-size-fits-all answer to that question. People are always going to draw that line in a different place and people are always going to find internet echo chambers reinforcing them. That's not limited to "woke" people though so I guess I just find it odd when "wokeism" is seen as uniquely bad in that regard. 

[ahah]

May 7, 2022 8:22:09 GMT -4 Mutagen said:

Yeah. As much as I would like to think people are going to react to Dave's trans jokes thoughtfully and analyze all aspects of trans rights... let's be real. A lot of people just want an excuse to laugh at trans people. They don't give a fuck about deeper understanding or intellectual understanding. Chicks with dicks are funny! That's the end of it. And Dave is giving them that excuse, giving them permission, by couching it in this narrative that he's challenging the mean internet wokies. 

And what really makes him a gross hypocrite to me is that I know he's capable of thinking about the consequences of jokes. Because it's exactly why he walked away from Chappelle's show at the height of its success -- because he realized he was, however unintentionally, giving white people ammunition to laugh *at* black people. Now he's giving his audience permission to laugh AT trans people, only this time, he doesn't care. 

I will say, I think there are valid jokes and critiques to make about the selectiveness and viciousness of internet moral outrage. But I am officially over the special pleading for standup comedy. Sometimes a comedian is a brave truth-teller. Sometimes you're just a stale asshole with a mic. Dave Chappelle isn't being persecuted or "cancelled" because people are starting to put him in the latter category. Also, in another moment of hypocrisy, it should be noted that for all Dave's supposed outrage about the mean old internet, he doesn't seem to have a problem with goading his fans to harass Hannah Gadsby.  

I disagree with this analysis. I think that what Dave is doing is comparing the struggle of black Americans to the struggle of trans Americans, and pointing out hypocrisies he sees as well as protections given to trans people that he doesn't think have been given to black people. It makes sense to me that some would agree with him and others would disagree. That's going to happen anytime a person speaks out with a firm opinion. But it doesn't make sense to me to say there is no thought behind it. The intent is to make you think about how we react to discrimination - and quite honestly, some of the reaction to him declaring he can't make the jokes are affirming his point.

[cremetangerine82]

ahah, Dave Chapelle‘s observation on LGBTQ+ Americans versus Black Americans is a false equivalency and feels like he’s trying to pit two marginalized groups together to claim the former group is “winning”, which is a horrible, horrible way to think when civil rights are being chipped away for both groups right now in the United States of America.

Also, the fact that he doesn’t understand that people can be both trans AND black is galling, and torpedos some of his observations about hypocrisies, because someone who is both trans and black has to deal with both transphobia and racism. Dave frames trans people as a monolithically white group, which is patently false. That’s what’s frustrating to someone who can be incredibly funny and incredibly intelligent, it does shows a lack of deep thought. In regards to the LGBTQ communities, he can only see them as white and intersectionality is lost on him.

[batmom]

Here's my hot take at the ripe old age of 48. "Woke agenda" without context means shit. You think I filled in blanks? I did - because the were left them everywhere. If there's something specific to say, say it.

[cremetangerine82]

May 8, 2022 15:12:22 GMT -4 Ridha said:

May 7, 2022 17:43:19 GMT -4 petitesuite said:

Saying "your definition is wrong" while declining to provide an alternate definition is also not a persuasive or well-reasoned argument, even if you are responding to a straw man. Someone else asked you, sincerely, to explain what you meant and I notice you haven't taken the time to respond to that yet.

No I haven’t. The last time I did respond to a similarish question, I got a rap for derailing the thread. Plus in some respects I am aware I have a different world view from most of this forum on many issues. Not all, and that’s exactly the issue that most Centrists face, the position of the Right can often turn as off as much as the Left. I do know though that there’s a distinct lack of nuance and context in most topics (whether the Trans issue that Dave Chappelle has waded in to or others) with the result that there are increasingly fewer people who are Centrists, and most are either staunchly Left or Right. I’m not sure one can put it down to culture or Eastern hemisphere versus Western Hemisphere, because much of America seems to have similar views to me on those particular topics… but I don’t think they’re on this board, and I don’t want to deal with the type of withering response I’ve had when similar topics have come up in the past. So no, I won’t be stepping into the rabbit hole of giving my definition for both of the above reasons, but I will say, again, that I don’t have any issue in “respecting humanity”, and having empathy for individuals.

Also for the record, I did not say anyone’s definition was ‘wrong’. I said it was subjective, and not to ascribe a definition of not “respecting humanity” on me. So second Straw Man there.

CW: transphobia, transmisogyny, very vulgar quotes from Dave Chappelle

Ridha, the issue isn’t being Centrist or even Right-leaning in a personal political ideology. Speaking of Dave Chappelle as “a voice of sense” and “a very decent guy.” and going against “the Woke Millenials agenda”. In his Netflix special The Closer, he speaks of a trans woman’s “meaty dick” at a urinal or looking for an Adam’s apple to spot a trans woman or calling vaginoplasty as creating an “Impossible^TM Pussy” that “bleeds” beet juice doesn’t strike me as someone who is decent and respects trans women’s humanity. Him using their existence as cheap “joke” fodder because he knows he can gets laughs because “trans woman = gross” sells. That’s my problem with his “comedy”; it’s the complete opposite of respecting humanity.

Netflix Won’t Air Dave Chappelle’s Hollywood Bowl Set.

Preparing him to bitch about being silenced in 3, 2, …

[Ridha]

cremetangerine82 I have seen the Netflix special. I enjoyed it. I found some jokes funny, I found others thought-provoking. I found that he came across as a decent guy *on balance*. If to your mind that makes me and anyone else who enjoyed the The Closer, people who don’t “respect humanity”, then well, what can I say. That’s your opinion and you’re certainly entitled to it.

Worth bearing in mind though that Chappelle is not some obscure fringe comedian. There’s a reason that he commands the paycheque he does. There is a reason that the Left is thought of as more intolerant than, and more in need of an Echo Chamber, than the Right or Centrists in the current day and age. So if you’re going to dismiss everyone who enjoys his comedy and doesn’t think he’s an evil bigot as not as respecting humanity, then that’s an awful lot of humanity who doesn’t respect humanity.

[esperanza]

May 10, 2022 12:05:01 GMT -4 Ridha said:

cremetangerine82 I have seen the Netflix special. I enjoyed it. I found some jokes funny, I found others thought-provoking. I found that he came across as a decent guy *on balance*. If to your mind that makes me and anyone else who enjoyed the The Closer, people who don’t “respect humanity”, then well, what can I say. That’s your opinion and you’re certainly entitled to it.

Worth bearing in mind though that Chappelle is not some obscure fringe comedian. There’s a reason that he commands the paycheque he does. There is a reason that the Left is thought of as more intolerant than, and more in need of an Echo Chamber, than the Right or Centrists in the current day and age. So if you’re going to dismiss everyone who enjoys his comedy and doesn’t think he’s an evil bigot as not as respecting humanity, then that’s an awful lot of humanity who doesn’t respect humanity.

Ridha, while I agree that there are some that perceive the left to be intolerant (believe me, I have come across people that have said that), I truly do not understand how they come to that conclusion. I agree that there are extremes, but that it on both sides, and the idea of the left being intolerant? The whole platform of the right is based on fear and intolerance of other groups and their decisions, that is what we as a country is facing head on right now with abortion rights being challenged, books being banned, the "don't say gay" bullshit, voting rights being slashed. We have right wing protesters intolerant of a fair election, and they caused an insurrection because if it! You cannot get anymore intolerant than that!

But back on topic. If you are saying that the left is intolerant of hateful and hurtful speech, then I can agree on that, because that is why Dave Chappelle is being criticized right now. But as other posters have said, he is not being cancelled for it, nobody is asking for his arrest. He can say whatever the hell he wants, but he may have to face the criticism of his words and actions.