Dave Chappelle

[Ridha]

No issue at all with him (or anyone else) being criticised for his words and actions. Conversely though, I would have also hoped though that there can be a sense that there are many who have no issue with his words and actions. To put it another way I am fine with you denouncing him. I would just like for you to be fine with me not denouncing him/finding him funny/decent/sensible/refreshingly blunt. But anyone who wants to decide that my finding him those things means that I don’t respect humanity or am also an evil bigot which you have decided he is, that’s fine too.

As to your wider question of how is the Left intolerant, well, we have JK Rowling being denounced as a hateful TERF, for imo her entirely sensible and empathetically expressed views pushing back against terminology. We have Martina Navratilova, a gay icon, and one of the most decent sportspeople, likewise being denounced as a TERF for her well researched and sensitively expressed views that biological men competing against biological women in the sporting arena is cheating. We have anyone who didn’t believe Amber Heard, or simply didn’t want to form a conclusion in the absence of further evidence, following her 2015 allegations, denounced as a victim blaming misogynist. Imo the Left has a complete lack of nuance, and a combative “if you’re not with us you’re against us” attitude, where nothing less than an Echo Chamber - voiced in terms they deem inclusive, politically correct, and acceptable no less - will do.

[Ginger]

Oct 11, 2017 23:16:13 GMT -4 esperanza said:

But as other posters have said, he is not being cancelled for it, nobody is asking for his arrest. He can say whatever the hell he wants, but he may have to face the criticism of his words and actions.

Yes, he should be subject to pushback on what he says. Boycott has also always been a healthy tool as well. But he shouldn't be subject to threats or violence. And although the attack probably was not directly related to his last special, the widespread response on the internet after it happened was various iterations of "no sympathy" or suggestions that he deserves it so it's ok to feel low-key happy about it.

If any other celebrity that people liked were rushed at onstage with a weapon, people would rightfully be horrified and have sympathy for what was a scary close call.

[Beyle]

Interesting thread, folks. 👍🏻

[cremetangerine82]

May 10, 2022 12:05:01 GMT -4 Ridha said:

cremetangerine82 I have seen the Netflix special. I enjoyed it. I found some jokes funny, I found others thought-provoking. I found that he came across as a decent guy *on balance*. If to your mind that makes me and anyone else who enjoyed the The Closer, people who don’t “respect humanity”, then well, what can I say. That’s your opinion and you’re certainly entitled to it.

Worth bearing in mind though that Chappelle is not some obscure fringe comedian. There’s a reason that he commands the paycheque he does. There is a reason that the Left is thought of as more intolerant than, and more in need of an Echo Chamber, than the Right or Centrists in the current day and age. So if you’re going to dismiss everyone who enjoys his comedy and doesn’t think he’s an evil bigot as not as respecting humanity, then that’s an awful lot of humanity who doesn’t respect humanity.

If you enjoyed the special, OK. However, comedy to me is best when it punches up, like George Carlin criticizing the “pro life“ movement (that they care about the unborn, but do not care about the babies once they’re outside of the uterus). I understand that Dave Chapelle is very well known, I was a huge fan of his Comedy Central show, but his current phase is deeply disappointing in terms of what his stand-up material is right now. What worries me is far too many people are going to agree while he says horrible and dehumanizing things about trans women, along with his comments on Asian-Americans and Jewish people.

I’m living in the United States right now, and the climate is very volatile with civil rights being rolled back for trans people (almost 240 anti-LGBTQ legislation so far this year) and hate crimes being committed against Jewish Americans (being held hostage in a synagogue in Texas) and Asian Americans (an increase of 339% last year) are becoming distressingly common. Those are the people he found to be subjects for his “jokes”, and it worries me that he’s fanning the flames while profiting ($20 million dollars for one Netflix special). That doesn’t speak to me as a decent guy, but someone who’s willing to say bigoted things for profit.

I don’t know you, but I really couldn’t enjoy Dave’s “comedy” right now. No matter what your political ideology is, I don’t like comedy that punches down.

[ahah]

May 10, 2022 15:29:14 GMT -4 cremetangerine82 said:

May 10, 2022 12:05:01 GMT -4 Ridha said:

cremetangerine82 I have seen the Netflix special. I enjoyed it. I found some jokes funny, I found others thought-provoking. I found that he came across as a decent guy *on balance*. If to your mind that makes me and anyone else who enjoyed the The Closer, people who don’t “respect humanity”, then well, what can I say. That’s your opinion and you’re certainly entitled to it.

Worth bearing in mind though that Chappelle is not some obscure fringe comedian. There’s a reason that he commands the paycheque he does. There is a reason that the Left is thought of as more intolerant than, and more in need of an Echo Chamber, than the Right or Centrists in the current day and age. So if you’re going to dismiss everyone who enjoys his comedy and doesn’t think he’s an evil bigot as not as respecting humanity, then that’s an awful lot of humanity who doesn’t respect humanity.

If you enjoyed the special, OK. However, comedy to me is best when it punches up, like George Carlin criticizing the “pro life“ movement (that they care about the unborn, but do not care about the babies once they’re outside of the uterus). I understand the Dave Chapelle is very well known, and what worries me is far too many people are going to take his word as gospel while he says horrible and dehumanizing things about trans women, along with his comments on Asian-Americans and Jewish people.

I’m living in the United States right now, and the climate is very volatile with civil rights being rolled back for trans people (denial of healthcare, athletic participation bans, etc.) and hate crimes being committed against Jewish Americans (being held hostage in a synagogue in Texas) and Asian Americans (an increase of 300% last year) are social epidemics. Those are the people he found to be subjects for his jokes, and it worries me that he’s fanning the flames while profiting ($20 million dollars for one Netflix special. That doesn’t speak to me as a decent guy.

Also, threatening to take $65 million of the investment from the town you practically own because of a low income housing project makes you look very entitled and and classes who doesn’t want to live among poor people.

I also live in the US, and I think a large part of the reason there are threats to the civil rights of trans people is that the things being discussed in this thread prevent an honest discussion of the issues. Ridha mentioned earlier the blowback that Martina Navratilova faced for commenting on the issue of how to best set policies for trans athletes. When a person who has done as much to promote equal rights in athletics as Martina is not allowed to participate in the conversation without being labelled as hateful, we have a problem. There are people who oppose civil rights because they do not understand the issue. I don't know how to effectively educate them with the hopes of changing minds if we're not allowed to talk about it.

The left was described earlier of being intolerant of hateful or hurtful speech. That's a noble thing to be intolerant of. But who can be trusted as arbiter of what is hateful or hurtful? The problem is that hateful and hurtful are painted with such a broad brush that instead of protecting people, we end up just scared to talk, and that doesn't help anyone.

Chalk me up as another one who watched Dave's special and thought some things were said that made me think. Maybe that is the issue here. People are fearful that he'll say things that cause people to believe hateful and hurtful things instead of being provoked to think. Where is the part of the political spectrum where people are encouraged to listen and think? Because that's where I want to be standing - and I have a feeling I'm going to find Dave Chapelle standing in that area too.

[Ginger]

Chappelle opposed a for-profit housing development that was almost entirely $300k single-family homes. Affordable housing had almost nothing to do with it, despite the media headlining most of their articles that way.

From The Grio

When land developer Oberer Land Developers, a for-profit company that, well…develops land, bought 52.65 acres of land in the tiny village of Yellow Springs to develop 143 single-family homes, the residents had concerns about affordability, transparency and the complaints that a dump was formerly located on the site. So, to ease those concerns, Oberer offered a second plan that included a planned use development (PUD). In the second plan, along with townhomes and duplexes, Oberer would have created a public park, water retention ponds and offered to set aside 1.75 acres to the city to develop 20 units of affordable housing. In exchange, the city would maintain the park, the roads, street lighting and retention ponds.

The economist who wrote the article contends that the development would actually make the town more gentrified, less affordable and less diverse. He also contends that it defies logic that a 1.75 acre plot with no actual plan to build any affordable housing on it at all would be a big deal to Chappelle.

Per Chapelle's statement: “Neither Dave nor his neighbors are against affordable housing. However, they are against the poorly vetted, cookie-cutter, sprawl-style development deal which has little regard for the community, culture and infrastructure of the village."

Chappelle has spoken a lot about how he values the feel of the town - the corn fields, stuff like that. Why should he make a massive investment to build cultural infrastructure in a town that he sees is about to be overtaken by ugly, characterless suburban housing developments? Not only is it entirely his prerogative how he wants to spend his money, it's also about smart investing with a lot of money at stake.

[cremetangerine82]

ahah, my fear isn’t that Dave Chapelle is thinking outside the box and really saying something with his comedy. Most of the “jokes” in his special were trans women being gross and not real women. That to me just seems more dehumanizing than thought provoking discourse about trans people. The situation is grim that trans people are afraid to go to bathrooms, consider athletics to not be available to them, and we have many prominent people who are not willing to have a nuanced debate on this. Dave was not nuanced in his special at all, that’s the problem.

[ahah]

May 10, 2022 16:02:46 GMT -4 cremetangerine82 said:

ahah, my fear isn’t that Dave Chapelle is thinking outside the box and really saying something with his comedy. Most of the “jokes” in his special were trans women being gross and not real women. That to me just seems more dehumanizing than thought provoking discourse about trans people. The situation is grim that trans people are afraid to go to bathrooms, consider athletics to not be available to them, and we have many prominent people who are not willing to have a nuanced debate on this. Dave was not nuanced in his special at all, that’s the problem.

This is where we differ - you hear the jokes in the special as saying trans women are gross not real women. Others hear them differently. That's what I was getting at when I asked who gets to be the arbiter of what is hurtful and hateful. You should listen to things and decide for yourself how they sound. It starts to be a problem when anyone starts insisting that the way they hear it must be the way all people hear it.

[Ridha]

This. Tbh I have seen a lot of opinions in this thread stated as fact. And, on social media generally, I DO see that (i.e stating THEIR opinions as fact, which others need to ‘educate’ themselves on, in order to evolve past their ‘problematic’ views) as something Left leaning do more than others. They’re not facts. They’re subjective opinions. And everyone is entitled to have them, but it’s very telling of the intractable and un-nuanced mindset when they are not recognised by the writer or speaker as the case may be, as such. And yes; the single inverted commas denotes buzz words of the Woke Millenial (yes that term again that seems be a ‘trigger’) brigade as I see them.

Things like “I like comedy that doesn’t punch down”. Great. So as it happens, do I. I don’t personally see Dave Chappelle’s comedy AS punching down though. If someone else does, that’s fine. It doesn’t suddenly become a ‘fact’ though.

Or, as ahah referenced already, that ‘the Left are intolerant of hateful and hurtful speech’. Great. That’s a good thing. But entirely subjective what IS hateful and hurtful. And fyi, just because someone’s feelings were ‘hurt’ (and one can always find SOMEONE who was hurt by a something that most are fine by) by a statement does not make it ‘hateful’. Should we not talk about the unfairness to women athletes to have to compete on the same playing field as bio males, because the trans community find that hurtful?

I’m with Ricky Gervais (another comedian I find incredibly decent where it matters to me - eg feelings about animals - while being brilliantly cutting). He said:

“The thing about offence isn't it when people say they are offended - well so fucking what? It’s like just because you're offended it doesn't mean you're right, you know?" Gervais said, which was met with a round of applause in the audience. “Just because you're offended, doesn't mean you're right. Some people are offended by mixed marriage, gay people, atheism. So what? Fuck 'em.”

[cremetangerine82]

May 10, 2022 16:10:34 GMT -4 ahah said:

May 10, 2022 16:02:46 GMT -4 cremetangerine82 said:

ahah, my fear isn’t that Dave Chapelle is thinking outside the box and really saying something with his comedy. Most of the “jokes” in his special were trans women being gross and not real women. That to me just seems more dehumanizing than thought provoking discourse about trans people. The situation is grim that trans people are afraid to go to bathrooms, consider athletics to not be available to them, and we have many prominent people who are not willing to have a nuanced debate on this. Dave was not nuanced in his special at all, that’s the problem.

This is where we differ - you hear the jokes in the special as saying trans women are gross not real women. Others hear them differently. That's what I was getting at when I asked who gets to be the arbiter of what is hurtful and hateful. You should listen to things and decide for yourself how they sound. It starts to be a problem when anyone starts insisting that the way they hear it must be the way all people hear it.

I’m not hearing what I want to hear, I pulled quotes from The Closer because I’ve watched the special five times, so claiming I’m not listening when I’m stating what he said in the special. Dave clearly stated that trans women were gross, unreasonable and violent at the smallest slight, and not real women (“I’m Team TERF”). The problem isn’t with “the intolerant Left”, but the multi-millionaire who is being correctly criticized for his dehumanizing “jokes” that have an international platform. I’m not trying to convert you, but my perspective is heavily bent towards wanting trans people to live their lives without so much vitriol and denial of their very existence and being used as cheap joke material.

He made a salient point about Sojourner Truth “Ain’t I a Woman?” speech, which spoke to her being both black and a woman, but yet denies that the LGBT community is not all white.

I laughed at his joke about “one they or many theys?”, because that was a funny and original joke about non-binary folks. I do appreciate that he’s opposed to the North Carolina bathroom bill, but in the special there was one person who wooed in approval because they were expecting for Dave to be for the bill.

Ginger, I have already stated that the Yellow Springs, Ohio housing development plan was much more complicated than Dave Chappelle not wanting to live around a low-income housing project, so I removed that comment, which lacked nuance. My apologies.