Dave Chappelle

[Ridha]

May 14, 2022 15:48:01 GMT -4 Mutagen said:

May 14, 2022 12:50:01 GMT -4 Ridha said:

It’s not “philosophical” questions about close majorities. I can truly understand how it might seem that way if the only people who hold certain views in your country come wearing those red Maga hats or white hoods. But there is a RANGE of nice enough people who aren’t racist rednecks who also have a different worldview than you, including who’s Oppressed and what’s Right. For instance on this thread I know I’m the Bad, regressive one (and that’s genuinely ok, I reference it as an example merely to illustrate my point), and you all are the Good, enlightened ones. But if you step out of your circle of friends, country, social media forum, echo chamber, you’ll find that alooot of pretty good people hold fairly different views on a range of topics, and have a VERY different opinion on whose Oppressed, and what standing up for what’s Right entails.

Maybe some of the "Wokes" and "Offendeds" are also good people who hold fairly different views on a range of topics, though? Maybe some of the criticism of Dave Chappelle is actually coming from real human beings who are tired of their genitalia being a punchline at best, and justification of violence at worst. We can all stand to challenge ourselves and keep learning, no argument there. But it needs to go both ways.

By the way (and this is a comment to the general thread, not to you individually Ridha), in case anyone was curious about the actual attack, Chappelle's own account is that it had little to do with the topics of his comedy after all.

[Chappelle] asked Lee what possibly could have prompted his attack, to which Lee — who Chappelle said appeared to him to be mentally ill — offered a story about his grandmother from Brooklyn, who had been forced out of her neighborhood by gentrification. The attack was meant to draw attention to her plight, Chappelle recounted.

But that’s just it; I can actually see that everyone on the thread who holds these different views to me *are* good, well educated, and thoughtful people, who happen to hold different views to me on some key topics but likely similar views on many others. I don’t get the impression it goes both ways though, I’ll be honest. And that’s not just specific to this thread, but generally; there seems to be more acceptance of the fact that worldviews are *Subjective* and not Right or Wrong, from the Right/Centrists, than the Left.

As to the attack itself, that’s interesting to know but for me the issue wasn’t the attack but the general views from the Left about Chappelle, (and Rowling, and Jenner, and Gervais) again including but not limited to this thread, who are written off (and that was literally stated by more than one person above) as not people deserving of having their opinion considered, or who could be decent people. I don’t think the Right or Centrists have the same black and white, all or nothing approach.

An interesting contradiction that I think will be coming up more in the next few years, and which I’ve brought up in another thread (Chris Pratt?) is, if a certain type of person (let’s call them Enlightened instead of Woke if you’re all happier with that) consider anti-semitism and Islamaphobia as Wrong, then how are you going to balance that with the fact that many followers can be considered phobic of certain other lifestyles. That does not mean that the latter should be persecuted or not treated kindly but that they shouldn’t be considered an ideal to strive for as per some religious views. So how will the Enlightened manage that clash for instance, unless they get a bit of nuance? Currently for instance there is zero difference in the minds of the Enlightened, between those people who believe in unkindness to certain people (and who will be responsible for the violence stats linked above), and those who believe that they should be treated with kindness but also not be allowed to infringe rights of others? When there is practically no difference in minds between the decency of Chappelle, Jenner, Finkelstein, and the KKK (or their equivalent in the various topics), there’s a severe problem with that lack of nuance.

[cremetangerine82]

May 14, 2022 12:50:01 GMT -4 Ridha said:

Because it’s debatable what’s “the right thing”, and which the oppressed community “suffering mightily” is?

You mentioned rhetoric against Jews above. Well to many, especially not in America, American mainstream media is so protective of the Jewish community, that one can’t even speak against the atrocity of Israel as a concept and specific atrocities by Israel against Palestine without being labelled anti-semitic. Jeremy Corbyn, George Galloway, and the very brave Norman Finkelstein (since it requires more strength to stand up for rights against your own community (as Caitlyn Jenner has found out, and as borne out by the reaction to her swimming against the tide in this very thread, where that can’t possibly be her genuine opinion, but “self interest”) have all experienced that.

If there are people who don’t see the difference between valid criticism of Israel‘s policies against the Palestinians versus people with torches chanting “Jews will not replace us” in 2017 (in Charlottesville, Virginia of all places), that is a lack of discernment and nuance. Caitlyn Jenner is not “swimming against the tide”; she is going to be on a channel (Fox News) that spreads transphobia on a regular basis, that’s the very definition of self-centered.

May 14, 2022 16:52:15 GMT -4 @ridha said:

That does not mean that the latter should be persecuted or not treated kindly but that I get shouldn’t be considered an ideal to strive for as per some religious views. So how will the Enlightened manage that clash for instance, unless they get a bit of nuance? Currently for instance there is zero difference in the minds of the Enlightened, between those people who believe in unkindness to certain people (and who will be responsible for the violence stats linked above), and those who believe that they should be treated with kindness but also not be allowed to infringe rights of others? When there is practically no difference in minds between the decency of Chappelle, Jenner, Finkelstein, and the KKK (or their equivalent in the various topics), there’s a severe problem with that lack of nuance.

As a Left-leaning individual, I can see the difference between Dave Chapelle, a man that has made repeatedly bigoted statements against the LGBTQ+ communities (along with Asian Americans and Jewish people in his last special) and the Klux Klux Klan, a group who doesn’t seem to be fond of black Americans or Muslims, groups that both Chapelle belongs to as a person.

Speaking of nuance, I did research on Ricky Gervais’ supposed transphobic tweets, and edited my post and I apologized because he clarified his statements were response to a satirical article, meant to be satirical, and then clearly stated that “trans women are women”. I’m not including him as a transphobic celebrity, because he probably isn’t. After two degrees in psychology, I feel like giving myself 50 lashes with a wet noodle for misremembering something!

ETA: Thanks, Ricky, I shouldn’t have defended you.

As a cis feminist woman who believes deeply in equality and equity, I find comments that says women need to be constantly protected against trans women in bathrooms or in athletics still frames trans women as predators and opportunists and “not real women“ and cis women as meek creatures who constantly need safekeeping. Saying that attacks in bathrooms do not happen at all (that would be a complete falsehood) or that women may be more vulnerable to physical violence committed by men (sadly, I’ve read far too many homicides reports of a woman being killed by a man she knew). Unfortunately, there are far too many bad faith actors who have bigoted and un-nuanced assumptions that the mainstream media are not afraid to capitalize on, like Fox News, the organization that will be hiring Caitlyn Jenner.

I’m not going to discuss Norman Finkelstein, it’s too off-topic.

OT: Dave Chappelle reportedly making $24.1 million USD off The Closer from Netflix in the very same year the same year that 57 trans and non-binary people, predominantly black and Latina trans women were murdered does seem a bit galling to me.

ETA: My previous version of this post sounded very dismissive of the experiences of survivors of violence, and for that I offer my deepest and sincerest apology. I do not want to sound like I’m not taking seriously the issue of violence against women, which is a depressingly common social epidemic that seems to have no end. Again, I can’t apologize enough to anyone who found my previous post to be dismissive.

[Lwaxana]

May 14, 2022 18:22:32 GMT -4 cremetangerine82 said:

May 14, 2022 12:50:01 GMT -4 Ridha said:

As a cis feminist woman who believes deeply in equality and equity, I find comments that says women need to be constantly protected against trans women in bathrooms or in athletics still frames trans women as predators and opportunists and “not real women“ and cis women as meek creatures who constantly need safekeeping. Those are bigoted and un-nuanced assumptions that the mainstream media are not afraid to capitalize on,like Fox News, the organization that will be hiring Caitlyn Jenner.[

As a sis feminist woman who believes in equality and equity I find the pooh-poohing of women's concerns regarding assault extremely offensive. I was attacked. I had bones in my face fractured, ribs broken, two black eyes and multiple gashes. From a 140 pound man. Women are equal but different and despite what TV shows us with the Black Widow and other female superheroes, a woman will very rarely beat a man in a physical fight. They have different biological structures. It doesn't matter if not all trans people are predators or if the attacker is just disguising themselves as trans to enter a bathroom. Bathroom attacks DO happen and ignoring those red flags or gut instincts because you dont want to be rude or offensive or wrong is EXACTLY the kind of bullshit that gets women raped and killed. I really do not care if I offend a transwoman by being on guard. If she's a true sister, she'll get why. Her feelings are not more important than my safety.

[cremetangerine82]

May 14, 2022 20:24:54 GMT -4 Lwaxana said:

May 14, 2022 18:22:32 GMT -4 cremetangerine82 said:

As a sis feminist woman who believes in equality and equity I find the pooh-poohing of women's concerns regarding assault extremely offensive. I was attacked. I had bones in my face fractured, ribs broken, two black eyes and multiple gashes. From a 140 pound man. Women are equal but different and despite what TV shows us with the Black Widow and other female superheroes, a woman will very rarely beat a man in a physical fight. They have different biological structures. It doesn't matter if not all trans people are predators or if the attacker is just disguising themselves as trans to enter a bathroom. Bathroom attacks DO happen and ignoring those red flags or gut instincts because you dont want to be rude or offensive or wrong is EXACTLY the kind of bullshit that gets women raped and killed. I really do not care if I offend a transwoman by being on guard. If she's a true sister, she'll get why. Her feelings are not more important than my safety.

CW: physical violence, domestic abuse, rape, sexual assault, property victimization, trauma, murder, transphobia, transmisogyny, racism, misogynoir, censored expletives in a study

If you don’t mind me asking (I don’t want to re-traumatize you and I deeply hope you have healed and I’m sincerely sorry you had to go through such a traumatic event), was the person a cis man? I’m someone who has been hit by boys (ironically at a church) and by a cis male family member, done research on domestic violence prevention for the Department of Public Health, took physical defense classes in college to prevent being raped, declined a coffee date with a cis man college student who turned out to be a serial rapist, had a college roommate who was verbally threatened by an abusive boyfriend of a teammate, was verbally accosted in a public restroom by a man who was insistent that another woman who had walked in was a trans woman, has female relatives who were survivors of child sexual abuse, and has a mother who is a domestic abuse survivor.

I’m not diminishing the vulnerability women have in relation to men, that’s a sad reality. I edited my previous post to not sound that I was “pooh-poohing“ violence towards women:

Saying that attacks in bathrooms do not happen at all (that would be a complete falsehood) or that women may be more vulnerable to physical violence committed by men (sadly, I’ve read far too many homicides reports of a woman being killed by a man she knew).

I also added an open-ended apology to you and any other victims of violence that made my previous post sound like I was being completely dismissive of it:

ETA: My previous version of this post sounded very dismissive of the experiences of survivors of violence, and for that I offer my deepest and sincerest apology. I do not want to sound like I’m not taking seriously the issue of violence against women, which is a depressingly common social epidemic that seems to have no end. Again, I can’t apologize enough to anyone who found my previous comment to be dismissive.

Again, I cannot apologize enough if my previous post sounded like I was dismissing anyone who is a survivor of violence. I’m a feminist and supporter of women, and I didn’t sound enough like that, which is a huge failure on my part. I do sincerely apologize to you, hope to make amends with you, and truly wish to keep this discussion as civil and polite as possible.

Arguments based on fear are highly emotionally persuasive, that’s why they persist, but they may not be grounded in reality. For example, you are mowing the grass when you notice a brown, elongated shape on the ground, a snake! After a closer visual inspection, you find out that it’s just a brown garden hose. Did you truly believe it to be a snake at first glance? Yes. Did it turn out to be a snake? No. The brain structure (“almond-shaped clusters of nuclei”) that elicits split-second decisions (“gut instincts”) to potential threats (the amygdala) can lead us into thinking a non-threat is a threat.

I am a trans ally, but I am a data analysis nerd, so I require having discussions on issues that affect trans people with the most evidence-based data possible. However, after reading the scientific literature for over 14 years, there is quite a bit of bias and problematic conclusions that really muddy the waters between discussing trans people in an objective manner. The literature is getting better than it was in 2008, but the mainstream media has latched on to the adversarial us (cis majority) versus them (trans minority) mentality that makes the waters even muddier.

I’ve already reported on trans women who were killed, and trans individuals are four times more likely than cis individuals to be victims of various forms of violence. The narrative that trans women are attacking cis women at alarming rates in public restrooms is a problem, because it’s legislation is not based on data-based evidence, but fear. Some of the “logic“ for racially segregated restrooms in the United States was because black women would be a threat to white women. It’s on page three, section four, titled “The Threat of the Black Woman in the Bathroom”.

So many trans women avoid using public restrooms reserved for women as much as possible. That means that some of them going hours at their workplace without using the women’s restrooms (if they’re fortunate to be employed), going hours at college/university in order to not use the women’s restrooms (if they can access them), those who are forced to go into men’s restrooms in order to avoid harassment from women, and trans women who have been accused of being predators and child “groomers” while using the women’s restrooms.

There there is quite a bit of excessive accommodation that many trans women have to go through in order to not only make cis women comfortable, but to avoid the horrific events (verbal harassment, possibility for assault, possibility for sexual assault, possibility for being raped, possibility for being murdered), that could happen if they use the “wrong” restroom. This is not just about hurting a hypothetical trans woman’s feelings, every moment of their existence is fear of something happening to them just because of their gender identity. If you need another peer-reviewed and objective study from a respected publication, I found an excellent one done in the United Kingdom (in the section titled “Safety”).

Dave Chappelle being against anti-trans bathroom bills is one of the few redeeming qualities of his last special!

[Lwaxana]

May 14, 2022 20:35:11 GMT -4 cremetangerine82 said:

Again, I cannot apologize enough if my previous post sounded like I was dismissing anyone who is a survivor of violence. I’m a feminist and supporter of women, and I didn’t sound enough like that, which is a huge failure on my part. I do sincerely apologize to you, hope to make amends with you, and truly wish to keep this discussion as civil and polite as possible.

[/quote]


I appreciate the apology but there's no need. I assumed you were replying with the best intentions. It took me awhile to reply because I find these topics exhausting and painful, but I do understand your point, I just tend to bristle at the headlines that bathroom attacks are a "myth" with media implications that women are being ridiculous for being concerned. I've said before, it's not trans women that are the problem it's the men who victimize us both and make it hard to feel safe even among each other.

[cremetangerine82]

May 16, 2022 16:06:24 GMT -4 Lwaxana said:

May 14, 2022 20:35:11 GMT -4 cremetangerine82 said:

Again, I cannot apologize enough if my previous post sounded like I was dismissing anyone who is a survivor of violence. I’m a feminist and supporter of women, and I didn’t sound enough like that, which is a huge failure on my part. I do sincerely apologize to you, hope to make amends with you, and truly wish to keep this discussion as civil and polite as possible.

I appreciate the apology but there's no need. I assumed you were replying with the best intentions. It took me awhile to reply because I find these topics exhausting and painful, but I do understand your point, I just tend to bristle at the headlines that bathroom attacks are a "myth" with media implications that women are being ridiculous for being concerned. I've said before, it's not trans women that are the problem it's the men who victimize us both and make it hard to feel safe even among each other.

I understand if you felt that the apology wasn’t warranted, but I felt like I was being a terrible example of a feminist who supports other women by seemingly dismissing the experience of women who have sadly been survivors of violence in public restrooms. So yes, I feel the need to apologize in order to keep this thread from not getting too heated. I sincerely hope that you’ve been able to heal after such a horrific event.

I’m also glad you understand that the issue isn’t with trans women; they’re vulnerable in public restrooms as cis women can and have been. Unfortunately, the debate has been muddied by those who are deeply transphobic and just want another excuse to make lives more difficult for trans people. I’m glad you acknowledge that, I heard too much of the whataboutism of men claiming to be women to get access to those women-only spaces. Most predators are not gonna take that much time to get disguised and there’s nothing to stop women from being attacked in bathrooms or women-only spaces.

Keeping this on topic, I completely condemn the actions of the person who attacked Dave Chappelle (I’m not going to mention his name), because physical violence that is not in self-defense against physical harm or defense of the physical harm of others is extremely unacceptable.

ETA: Dave Chappelle continues to be awful. Ricky Gervais, sorry for defending you.

ETA: Dave, quit complaining when your complaint is on Netflix!