Dave Chappelle

[ahah]

May 10, 2022 16:58:36 GMT -4 cremetangerine82 said:

May 10, 2022 16:10:34 GMT -4 ahah said:

This is where we differ - you hear the jokes in the special as saying trans women are gross not real women. Others hear them differently. That's what I was getting at when I asked who gets to be the arbiter of what is hurtful and hateful. You should listen to things and decide for yourself how they sound. It starts to be a problem when anyone starts insisting that the way they hear it must be the way all people hear it.

I’m not hearing what I want to hear, I pulled quotes from The Closer because I’ve watched the special five times, so claiming I’m not listening when I’m stating what he said in the special. Dave clearly stated that trans women were gross, unreasonable and violent at the smallest slight, and not real women (“I’m Team TERF”). The problem isn’t with “the intolerant Left”, but the multi-millionaire who is being correctly criticized for his dehumanizing “jokes” that have an international platform. I’m not trying to convert you, but my perspective is heavily bent towards wanting trans people to live their lives without so much vitriol and denial of their very existence and being used as cheap joke material.

He made a salient point about Sojourner Truth “Ain’t I a Woman?” speech, which spoke to her being both black and a woman, but yet denies that the LGBT community is not all white.

I laughed at his joke about “one they or many theys?”, because that was a funny and original joke about non-binary folks. I do appreciate that he’s opposed to the North Carolina bathroom bill, but in the special there was one person who wooed in approval because they were expecting for Dave to be for the bill.

I did not say you are not listening. I spoke of what people hear. Hearing and listening are not the same thing. Hearing incorporates perception, and I acknowledge people can listen to the same thing and perceive it differently.

I am not trying to convert you either. I have read everything you and others have said with a desire to understand. I have expressed my point of view for anyone who cares to understand me.

[cremetangerine82]

ahah I have heard, listened, ruminated, pondered, and dissected The Closer since I watched it five times since its release in October 2021; my fifth time was on Monday just in case I missed something. I don’t know how many times you’ve watched it, so I can’t speak on that. I can’t stress enough how poorly Dave handled talking about the LGBTQ+ communities, especially trans women (he didn’t mentioned trans men). Asa former super fan, it’s frustrating how little he understands trans issues, yet speaks as if his perspective is “the truth” and supporting J.K. Rowling (who is a TERF) by saying “I’m Team TERF.”

As someone who’s been consistently harassed and bullied by these people for wanting trans people’s humanity to be respected, it’s certainly disingenuous when Dave claimed “they don’t hate trans women”. I was (falsely) identified as a stealth trans woman because they searched me and found my first name (used to be a masculine name) and my middle name (a feminine version of a masculine name). They went out of their way to find materials to hurt me, and called me mentally ill and a groomer of children. I’m a cis trans ally who was getting so much verbal abuse; imagine how much worse it is for trans women online?

As a researcher, I worked with the Department of Public Health for over a year with LGBTQ youth, and learned a lot about trans issues and have kept up with the objective, peer-reviewed scientific literature on trans people since 2008. I’ve cited objective sources on harm being done to trans people (facts, not opinions), and certain social media sources are falsely claiming that the person who attacked Dave Chapelle was a trans man (opinion); he is a cis man, a Trump supporter, and aspiring rapper.

I know how powerful perception is: I’m a black American who is constantly told by white Americans that racism doesn’t exist anymore. I am a woman who is being repeatedly told by men that sexism and misogyny is no longer a problem. I’m a bi woman who’s consistently told that biphobia isn’t a thing. As a Christian who has watched The Passion of Christ, I’ve had to debate other Christians that say there was absolutely no anti-semitic material in a movie that portrays the Pharisees and Sadducees as large-nosed and greedy for coins.

This is a great take about Dave Chappelle from a YouTuber I hugely respect.

[ahah]

May 10, 2022 17:55:20 GMT -4 cremetangerine82 said:

ahah I have heard, listened, ruminated, pondered, and dissected The Closer since I watched it five times since its release in October 2021; my fifth time was on Monday just in case I missed something. I don’t know how many times you’ve watched it, so I can’t speak on that. I can’t stress enough how poorly Dave handled talking about the LGBTQ+ communities, especially trans women (he didn’t mentioned trans men). Asa former super fan, it’s frustrating how little he understands trans issues, yet speaks as if his perspective is “the truth” and supporting J.K. Rowling (who is a TERF) by saying “I’m Team TERF.” Also, Ricky Gervais has made unnecessarily nasty comments on trans people, so his opinion is meaningless to me on what he deems offensive.

As someone who’s been consistently harassed and bullied by these people for wanting trans people’s humanity to be respected, it’s certainly disingenuous when Dave claimed “they don’t hate trans women”. I was (falsely) identified as a stealth trans woman because they searched me and found my first name (used to be a masculine name) and my middle name (a feminine version of a masculine name). They went out of their way to find materials to hurt me, and called me mentally ill and a groomer of children. I’m a cis trans ally who was getting so much verbal abuse; imagine how much worse it is for trans women online?

As a researcher, I worked with the Department of Public Health for over a year with LGBTQ youth, and learned a lot about trans issues and have kept up with the objective, peer-reviewed scientific literature on trans people since 2008. I’ve cited objective sources on harm being done to trans people (facts, not opinions), and certain social media sources are falsely claiming that the person who attacked Dave Chapelle was a trans man (opinion); he is a cis man, a Trump supporter, and aspiring rapper.

I know how powerful perception is: I’m a black American who is constantly told by white Americans that racism doesn’t exist anymore. I am a woman who is being repeatedly told by men that sexism and misogyny is no longer a problem. I’m a bi woman who’s consistently told that biphobia isn’t a thing. As a Christian who has watched The Passion of Christ, I’ve had to debate other Christians that say there was absolutely no anti-semitic material in a movie that portrays the Pharisees and Sadducees as large-nosed and greedy for coins.

This is a great take about Dave Chappelle from a YouTuber I hugely respect.

I respect your point of view and I am glad you have shared it. My only point, and I’ll just say it this one more time because I don’t think there’s use beating it to the ground, is that just like you’ve heard the special in all the times you’ve watched it through the filters of your experiences, others have heard it through the filters of their experiences. My filters do not make yours any more or less valid. We are just going to see things differently. I believe that’s okay - that different people will experience and react to art in different ways. I accept that everyone doesn’t think this way. I wish that wasn’t the case, but accept that it is.

[cremetangerine82]

You are correct about perception, but it’s frustrating that most cis people will listen to Dave Chappelle (or insert another cis, transphobic, prominent figure here) than a trans woman (or a trans man). I’m sure Dave wouldn’t like if David Duke spoke his “truth” about black Muslim Americans.

I also dislike his “I can’t be transphobic because I had a trans friend” when 1) he didn’t really know Daphne Dorman (R.I.P) that well and 2) he would rightly call out any white person who said “I can’t be racist because I have a black friend”.

[Ridha]

May 10, 2022 17:55:20 GMT -4 cremetangerine82 said:

can’t stress enough how poorly Dave handled talking about the LGBTQ+ communities,

J.K. Rowling (who is a TERF) by saying “I’m Team TERF.”

Also, Ricky Gervais has made unnecessarily nasty comments on trans people,

All these are your opinions, not facts. In my opinion on all these individuals, I think Chappelle has handled it brilliantly and I’m so glad he did some important and long overdue truth telling on a topic most people feel silenced to voice their true views on, in a humorous way. He didn’t have to, he could have enjoyed his millions, his uncontroversial legendary GOAT status, stuck to safer material, and he did it anyway.

Similarly imo, Rowling (not only not a TERF in the least), but someone as a human who appreciates inalienable truth over fashionable politically correct trends, and as a woman, I am so so grateful to for bravely sticking her head above the parapet and facing the vicious tsunami of the Trans response (I don’t think I’ve seen other activists of other causes who are quite as vicious).

And on Ricky Gervais, well I think it’s not being interested in anything he has to say on offensiveness, that right there is the problem. It’s not those who are ok with comedy pushing boundaries, causing offence who need to think about that quote, but the ones who do not. And *even* if you think he has said nasty things about Trans (for the record I disagree and don’t think he has), that makes him not worth listening to on ANYTHING? That right there is indicative of a larger problem with the Left generally and the Trans community in particular. The “all or nothing”, “with us or against us” approach.

Even Trump who I think is ew, had some sensible things to say for instance on foreign policy. It’s always worth trying to *hear* someone on regardless on whether you agree with them on another issue or not. And speaking of Trump, why do you Americans think he got elected. Even sitting in another country, I saw enough analysis of the 2016 shock result that was against the polls, to see that the less vocal Right and Centrists may not feel they have the energy to speak up against the Left but when the Left become so intractable in their views but were quietly resenting the clamp down on so called problematic views for some time. And no I don’t mean the baseball wearing Maga hat types, I mean (as one example) the common man version of JK Rowling who do not wish harm or isolation to a particular community but are written off as a TERF for pointing out some valid truths in a well reasoned and well researched way.

[cremetangerine82]

Ridha, Rowling’s history is very clear on anti-trans rhetoric.

Ricky Gervais did once tweet something interpreted as transphobic, but then stated that “trans women are women”. I apologize for that latter error, I’ll retract and will edit my comment. Yes, I’m more Left-leaning, but I read both The New Republic AND National Review, so I definitely don’t live in an echo chamber where I crochet “All Cops Are Bad” knit wool hats. When I misrepresented two things (on Dave Chappelle’s on the housing development and the aforementioned Gervais), I corrected them and apologized for my mistakes. How intolerant of me!

I don’t consider Martina Navratilova to be a TERF or “gender critical”, but her comments on trans women in athletics were unnecessarily abrasive and to be fair to Navratilova, she did apologize for some of the comments.

Trump? As an American who dealt with his presidency (2017-2021), there’s this ”foreign policy decision”.

I’ve cited sources for my information on hate crimes and negative legislation (against trans people, Asian Americans, and Jewish Americans) and watched The Closer five times to make sure I was accurate in what Dave said and researched Daphne Dorman (R.I.P.) in order to fact-check Dave’s exaggerated claim the cause of her suicide and the actuality of a friendship between Chappelle and Dorman. I will note that the family of Dorman has supported Chappelle, but it’s unclear whether Dorman had a close relationship with her family, so I don’t know what to make of that. Sadly, many trans people do not have the acceptance of their family, so unfortunately the only person who can speak for Dorman is sadly gone.

I understand the perception that trans people are being unreasonable and angry at the most minute slight, but when almost 57 of you get murdered last year and over 200 bills have been made to make your life even more intolerable and where you use the bathroom is suddenly a cultural war battlefield, can you understand the anger and hyper-vigilance? The difference between those who may have legitimate concerns about trans people and those who are bitterly transphobic is getting harder to distinguish, to err on the side of caution when people say “why do I need to respect pronouns?” are probably going to be someone who is not gonna be kind to the rest of the LGBTQ communities.

I’m just can’t reconcile wanting trans people to be respected with either Rowling or Chappelle.

[cubanitafresca]

May 10, 2022 16:27:41 GMT -4 Ridha said:

Things like “I like comedy that doesn’t punch down”. Great. So as it happens, do I. I don’t personally see Dave Chappelle’s comedy AS punching down though. If someone else does, that’s fine. It doesn’t suddenly become a ‘fact’ though.

How on earth is it not punching down when he's making fun of and going after the single most vulnerable group in our society? A group of people who are not only at great risk for suicide, but are being attacked, killed in record numbers, and are now facing attacks by people in government just for existing - and that's not punching down?

The fact that you dismiss that as punching down speaks to a bias on your part. Because the facts are clear - this is an at-risk vulnerable group of people.

[Mutagen]

May 9, 2022 10:29:45 GMT -4 ahah said:

May 7, 2022 8:22:09 GMT -4 Mutagen said:

Yeah. As much as I would like to think people are going to react to Dave's trans jokes thoughtfully and analyze all aspects of trans rights... let's be real. A lot of people just want an excuse to laugh at trans people. They don't give a fuck about deeper understanding or intellectual understanding. Chicks with dicks are funny! That's the end of it. And Dave is giving them that excuse, giving them permission, by couching it in this narrative that he's challenging the mean internet wokies. 

And what really makes him a gross hypocrite to me is that I know he's capable of thinking about the consequences of jokes. Because it's exactly why he walked away from Chappelle's show at the height of its success -- because he realized he was, however unintentionally, giving white people ammunition to laugh *at* black people. Now he's giving his audience permission to laugh AT trans people, only this time, he doesn't care. 

I will say, I think there are valid jokes and critiques to make about the selectiveness and viciousness of internet moral outrage. But I am officially over the special pleading for standup comedy. Sometimes a comedian is a brave truth-teller. Sometimes you're just a stale asshole with a mic. Dave Chappelle isn't being persecuted or "cancelled" because people are starting to put him in the latter category. Also, in another moment of hypocrisy, it should be noted that for all Dave's supposed outrage about the mean old internet, he doesn't seem to have a problem with goading his fans to harass Hannah Gadsby.  

I disagree with this analysis. I think that what Dave is doing is comparing the struggle of black Americans to the struggle of trans Americans, and pointing out hypocrisies he sees as well as protections given to trans people that he doesn't think have been given to black people.

I actually completely understand what he's doing with that. But it's a fundamentally flawed premise because it ignores that "black" and "trans" are not two separate categories. They overlap, and Dave has been criticized by black trans comedians on exactly these grounds. And not just on the grounds of "I'm offended"; on the grounds of, this is seriously the best you can do? Make jokes about trans people's genitalia as if that isn't basically the trans equivalent of "boy are my arms tired" comedy?

It makes sense to me that some would agree with him and others would disagree. That's going to happen anytime a person speaks out with a firm opinion. But it doesn't make sense to me to say there is no thought behind it.

Well, I actually didn't say there was no thought behind Dave's jokes. I've given credit to some of his commentary. My point was that there are people in the audience who will not put that much thought into it, and just want an excuse to laugh at trans people, and you can't tell me he isn't aware of that. Do all comedians have to instantly stop the second someone takes one of their jokes the wrong way? Of course not. Can we criticize Dave for knowing what he's doing when he eggs on that type of laughter? Yeah, we can.

The intent is to make you think about how we react to discrimination - and quite honestly, some of the reaction to him declaring he can't make the jokes are affirming his point.

But the thing is... he absolutely can make his jokes. He got paid $20 million to make his jokes. He's arguably in a better position to tell his jokes than 99% of people on the planet. 

Free speech means you get to make the jokes, and free speech also means other people get to tell you when they think your jokes suck. I've acknowledged and will never deny there are some truly stupid moral outrage shitstorms that happen on the internet. But I also find some of the criticism of "offended millenials" to be projection sometimes, because nobody seems more thin-skinned than a comedian being told they aren't as funny or truthful as they think they are.

[ahah]

May 11, 2022 11:34:08 GMT -4 Mutagen said:

Free speech means you get to make the jokes, and free speech also means other people get to tell you when they think your jokes suck. I've acknowledged and will never deny there are some truly stupid moral outrage shitstorms that happen on the internet. But I also find some of the criticism of "offended millenials" to be projection sometimes, because nobody seems more thin-skinned than a comedian being told they aren't as funny or truthful as they think they are.

Yes, people absolutely can and should say so when they think the jokes suck. But declaring that others cannot / should not hear the jokes because some have decided they suck is another thing entirely. When people lobby Netflix to drop Chapelle, that's what they're doing. Expressing dislike or disagreement with speech does not expand into preventing others from hearing said speech and judging it for themselves.

[Gigiree]

No one has the right to tell marginalized groups what they do and do not find offensive. When an individual who is trans says that Dave Chappelle's show was transphobic, I believe them. The same as I do when an African American person says that something is racist. As a thinking individual, I understand that my perception is not the same as others because of my history and privilege. In situations where there is a disconnect, I always side with the oppressed.

To quote Eli Wiesel, a man who understood this topic better than many, "We must always take sides. Neutrality helps the oppressor, never the victim. Silence encourages the tormentor, never the tormented. Sometimes we must interfere." When one attempts to silence the oppressed, one becomes an oppressor.