Demi Lovato

[Deleted]

May 19, 2021 14:09:40 GMT -4 mrspickles said:

May 19, 2021 9:37:13 GMT -4 tanyak said:

Announced they are non-binary and are changing pronouns.

They still seem exhausting to me.

I am far from an expert, but when announcing that you are non-binary and your preferred pronouns are they/them, does it not diminish your sincerity to repeatedly refer to yourselves as 'I' throughout the announcement?

Usage of the "they/them" pronoun can be confusing! My understanding comes from my non-binary friends, so may not be universal, but my friends use the "they" pronoun not as a plural, but more as a rejection of the singular gendered pronoun (since they feel neither primarily feminine nor masculine). So they use "they/them" when previously "she/her" and "he/him" were used, because "xe" etc hasn't caught on, but their self-identification is always singular. So it's an "I/them" situation, not "we/them" (because they don't feel they have two selves, it's just that their self is not aligned to gender). A strange linguistic quirk that self identification in English is not gendered, but reference to other singular individuals is. Perhaps future English will be more accommodating -- or maybe we'll just become more comfortable with a singular plural. 😊

ETA: Jinx with hildymatildy

[mrspickles]

May 19, 2021 14:19:27 GMT -4 hildymatildy said:

May 19, 2021 14:09:40 GMT -4 mrspickles said:

I am far from an expert, but when announcing that you are non-binary and your preferred pronouns are they/them, does it not diminish your sincerity to repeatedly refer to yourselves as 'I' throughout the announcement?

No, because "I" is a gender neutral term so it applies in all cases. Men call themselves I. Women call themselves I. Non-binary people also call themselves, I. Now if they decided to say she was a "system" (which is what people with dissociative people often call themselves), it would be weird if they said I. Otherwise what else are they supposed to use when referring to themselves personally?

That said, given her behaviors, I wonder if she has borderline personality disorder. It is often misdiagnosed as bipolar disorder. Her eating disorders, addictions, quickly changing interests, and need for attention are big red flags.

Yes, I think Demi is exhausting, but let us remember that they are a very ill young person still struggling to fill the empty places inside themselves in an industry that very much panders to those behaviors.

Thank you for explaining - I was thinking that if the selected pronouns are 'they/ them' that should mean that the personal pronoun would be 'we' and you've explained the nuance very well. Much appreciated. I was looking at it as a way of recognizing all parts, not as a means of rejecting a single gender.

eta_ thanks to @beezus also!

[seat6]

I wish the English language would catch up with society. I am trying to be supportive of non-binary people, but my brain does a little hiccup every time I come across the use of "they/them" as singular.

[cubanitafresca]

May 20, 2021 13:26:07 GMT -4 seat6 said:

I wish the English language would catch up with society. I am trying to be supportive of non-binary people, but my brain does a little hiccup every time I come across the use of "they/them" as singular.

OMG this. My daughter identifies as they/them and I have no problem with the concept of her being non-binary. It actually makes sense to me with what I know of her. But dear god, THE GRAMMAR of it, just kills me. It sounds so clunky and wrong. (and I'm sure y'all realize I'm not all that militant about grammar. But it just feels so wrong. We need new pronouns for non-binary people.

On Topic - I really feel for Demi, she desperately needs to leave the limelight and work on her issues.

[Gigiree]

May 20, 2021 13:26:07 GMT -4 seat6 said:

I wish the English language would catch up with society. I am trying to be supportive of non-binary people, but my brain does a little hiccup every time I come across the use of "they/them" as singular.

Don’t let the grammar issue bother you.

The Oxford English Dictionary traces singular they back to 1375, where it appears in the medieval romance William and the Werewolf. Except for the old-style language of that poem, its use of singular they to refer to an unnamed person seems very modern. Here’s the Middle English version: ‘Hastely hiȝed eche . . . þei neyȝþed so neiȝh . . . þere william & his worþi lef were liand i-fere.’ In modern English, that’s: ‘Each man hurried . . . till they drew near . . . where William and his darling were lying together.’

Since forms may exist in speech long before they’re written down, it’s likely that singular they was common even before the late fourteenth century. That makes an old form even older.

Singular they/them was not a problem until those 18th century men decided to write make-up English grammar rules, like the “no double-negative” rule or the “never end a sentence in a preposition” rule, which are not “grammatically correct” but are used constantly with nary a problem.

[seat6]

I have used “they” as singular conversationally for a long time. I tend to write so that I can avoid the singular they. It’s just my brain thinks of “they” as more than one, so I can get pretty confused in news reports. It’s more a blip for me with written English rather than spoken English.

[prisma]

How is non-binary handled in salutations (Mr., Mrs., Ms.)?

[tabby]

Nov 18, 2005 14:33:27 GMT -4 prisma said:

How is non-binary handled in salutations (Mr., Mrs., Ms.)?

My non-binary stepspawn uses "Mx" when a title is needed. I don't know if that's widely used, though.

When they came out as non-binary a few years ago, I asked what they'd like me to identify them as. "Stepspawn" was the favorite term, but "stepchild" got approval if something a bit more formal was needed.

I admit I still have a hard time with their pronouns when I'm speaking (writing, no problem).

[seat6]

May 21, 2021 9:37:36 GMT -4 prisma said:

How is non-binary handled in salutations (Mr., Mrs., Ms.)?

I have written “Dear M. Prisma” before. I live in a state where a lot men have names like Stacey, Tracey, Ashley. etc. I even know male Merediths, Evelyns, and Allisons. I think it’s the predominance of WASPs and Anglophiles in power. I work with our state legislature and I told my assistant to assume the rep or senator was male, even if the name were Jocelyn. We always double check, but the number of elected officials with British or Irish last names as first names is astounding (Montgomery, Carter, McEwen). I think it comes from the tradition of giving the child the mother’s maiden name as a middle name and then calling the child by the middle name, since the first name is Jiohn or Robert and there are too many of those.

Anyway, I also will use the full name if I am uncertain:

Dear Lee McCarter:

[Deleted]

May 21, 2021 11:16:43 GMT -4 seat6 said:

May 21, 2021 9:37:36 GMT -4 prisma said:

How is non-binary handled in salutations (Mr., Mrs., Ms.)?

I have written “Dear M. Prisma” before. I live in a state where a lot men have names like Stacey, Tracey, Ashley. etc. I even know male Merediths, Evelyns, and Allisons. I think it’s the predominance of WASPs and Anglophiles in power. I work with our state legislature and I told my assistant to assume the rep or senator was male, even if the name were Jocelyn. We always double check, but the number of elected officials with British or Irish last names as first names is astounding (Montgomery, Carter, McEwen). I think it comes from the tradition of giving the child the mother’s maiden name as a middle name and then calling the child by the middle name, since the first name is Jiohn or Robert and there are too many of those.

Anyway, I also will use the full name if I am uncertain:

Dear Lee McCarter:

Part of my job entails responding to reference questions via email, and I started using Dear or Hello Firstname Lastname ages ago. In my case it started because we get a lot of questions from people of many different cultures, and I wasn’t familiar enough with the languages to know what gender a name was considered to be. It’s made the cultural shift in gender identity norms much easier to deal with for me.

The only exception is when it’s abundantly clear in a person’s email how they want to be addressed, like when a woman signs her name Mrs. Firstname Lastname.