Joss Whedon

[Deleted]

May 2, 2018 15:31:14 GMT -4 forever1267 said:

Actually, he's not doing Batgirl. A Christina Hodson is writing it. She wrote the (who knew?) Bumblebee spinoff from Transformers

Thank goodness! Now I'll be able to stand seeing it.

[cremetangerine82]

Joss Whedon Responds to Accusations.

[Mutagen]

The writer of that piece did a great job - the most damning quotes are out of Whedon's own mouth. With Gal Gadot and Ray Fisher in particular, whether you think their complaints about Whedon have merit or not, he gave such trite and condescending dismissals. Exactly the kind of quippy Whedon one-liner that seems smart at first glance but really says nothing. 

On social media, I feel like I am seeing a lot of people beat themselves up for having been fans of Buffy or having considered it a feminist work, and I'm not really sure what to think about that. Buffy was not the only standard-bearer for compelling female characters in nerd media in the 90s (this came after Xena, Captain Janeway, Agent Scully, Susan Ivanova) but at the time, it *was* notable how much it centered female characters and tried to avoid the "Smurfette Principle" set-up, which some of the aforementioned examples really didn't do as much. It wasn't like there was this enormous glut of other Perfectly Inclusive (TM) content and everyone just decided "nah, I'm gonna go with Buffy instead." At the same time, there were things Buffy was rightfully criticized for in its time, and it *was* troubling how much Whedon was held up as this Feminist God by some fans. But Buffy DID offer something that a lot of other media at the time didn't, and I don't think Whedon turning out to be a huge asshole needs to retroactively make that less meaningful for people. As a Star Trek fan, don't get me started on how much I mentally erase Rick Berman (who makes Whedon look like a choirboy) from my engagement with the show!

[Binky]

One day when she is very old, SMG should write her memoirs. I think she has the most interesting and most damning stories about Buffy that she is currently too professional/close to that time period to share.

While the depths of Joss’ a-hole behavior was mostly covered during his Buffy/Angel/FF heyday, I do remember thinking it was so suspicious how the actors wouldn’t come back to his shows when offered. Amber Benson wouldn’t reappear on Buffy, SMG wouldn’t appear on Angel. The writing awkwardly covered for those absences, but it made me think that something was up.

Warren was my least favorite character on Buffy. Turns out, Joss is Warren.

[featherhat]

Years ago I read a review of "Normal Again" S6 episode of Buffy that commented "Joss Whedon says he's a feminist but he loves his heroines the most when they're broken and crying". And I've never been able to get that out of my head since. Even though I have enjoyed a lot of his work since then.

I don't think people should beat themselves up for liking his work. I still like the works of a lot of assholes and problematic people. I think the key is not to stan anyone and be aware that just because they're making a good product doesn't mean anything about them in other areas of their lives. And if they survive long in Hollywood chances are they're a bit of an ass at least.

If anyone's looking for a completely unproblematic show both in writing, with the actors and people BTS well that doesn't exist and won't. Even the most progressive shows have blind spots or a complete asshole of a producer and no one can predict how things will be viewed 30 + years from now. Maybe all current shows will be deemed problematic for how they treat computers and AI or whatever.(not really being facetious).

Jan 23, 2022 8:28:34 GMT -4 Mutagen said:

The writer of that piece did a great job - the most damning quotes are out of Whedon's own mouth. With Gal Gadot and Ray Fisher in particular, whether you think their complaints about Whedon have merit or not, he gave such trite and condescending dismissals. Exactly the kind of quippy Whedon one-liner that seems smart at first glance but really says nothing. 

On social media, I feel like I am seeing a lot of people beat themselves up for having been fans of Buffy or having considered it a feminist work, and I'm not really sure what to think about that. Buffy was not the only standard-bearer for compelling female characters in nerd media in the 90s (this came after Xena, Captain Janeway, Agent Scully, Susan Ivanova) but at the time, it *was* notable how much it centered female characters and tried to avoid the "Smurfette Principle" set-up, which some of the aforementioned examples really didn't do as much. It wasn't like there was this enormous glut of other Perfectly Inclusive (TM) content and everyone just decided "nah, I'm gonna go with Buffy instead." At the same time, there were things Buffy was rightfully criticized for in its time, and it *was* troubling how much Whedon was held up as this Feminist God by some fans. But Buffy DID offer something that a lot of other media at the time didn't, and I don't think Whedon turning out to be a huge asshole needs to retroactively make that less meaningful for people. As a Star Trek fan, don't get me started on how much I mentally erase Rick Berman (who makes Whedon look like a choirboy) from my engagement with the show!

I love all those characters you mentioned and I consider them important for me personally and they did help form the current TV landscape and the shows that came afterwards. I also roll my eyes at a lot of their storylines and there's barely one producer I haven't been frustrated with for one reason or another (even if they haven't been accused of anything) for what they've said about those characters and the show. Looking at you and among other things your refusal to acknowledge the series long medical rape Chris Carter.

I think the fact that you couldn't criticise Whedon in some circles was always troubling. I almost lost a real life friend for complaining about how Inara was portrayed in Firefly. But it doesn't negate the enjoyment people got from his shows or movies. I think Much Ado About Nothing is an interesting adaptation even though it simultaneously annoyed me because it reminded me of the stories of Whedon and his favourites spending all weekend together having a shindig reciting Shakespeare and if you weren't on the list or you had other people like a partner to spend time with ala SMG then you were frozen out at work too.

[chiqui]

Another Joss Whedon article here, critical of his writing style.

I've only watched one Whedon production in my life -- Serenity, the movie spin-off of Firefly, and thought it was odd. The dialogue was very passive-aggressivey, the hero suffered from Harrison Ford syndrome, and the plot centered around a naive teenage girl super-strong assassin or weapon whom they had to protect. Not a fan of it but I didn't dare admit it to my nephew :-(

The sexual politics of it seemed to say that young women are strong and chaotic, but needed to be shepherded/protected by a man so they wouldn't hurt themselves or others. Was that true of Buffy?

[horseface]

Jan 23, 2022 13:43:17 GMT -4 chiqui said:

Another Joss Whedon article here, critical of his writing style.

I've only watched one Whedon production in my life -- Serenity, the movie spin-off of Firefly, and thought it was odd. The dialogue was very passive-aggressivey, the hero suffered from Harrison Ford syndrome, and the plot centered around a naive teenage girl super-strong assassin or weapon whom they had to protect. Not a fan of it but I didn't dare admit it to my nephew :-(

The sexual politics of it seemed to say that young women are strong and chaotic, but needed to be shepherded/protected by a man so they wouldn't hurt themselves or others. Was that true of Buffy?

Not only was it true it was part of the entire cannon. Slayers needed a "watcher" to "guide" them. On the one occasion Buffy was appointed a female watcher she was mad for power and blew herself up with an enchanted glove.

[Mutagen]

Jan 23, 2022 13:24:16 GMT -4 featherhat said:

I almost lost a real life friend for complaining about how Inara was portrayed in Firefly.

Oh my GOD do not get me started on the hot garbage that was Mal and Inara's "banter." I tried to watch the Firefly series after seeing Serenity and gave up about two episodes in for exactly that reason. 

Serenity I will always appreciate for being the first movie I ever saw Chiwetel Ejiofor in (and he pretty much stole the movie) but in retrospect that's about it. 

[Auroranorth]

Jan 23, 2022 14:12:37 GMT -4 horseface said:

Jan 23, 2022 13:43:17 GMT -4 chiqui said:

Another Joss Whedon article here, critical of his writing style.

I've only watched one Whedon production in my life -- Serenity, the movie spin-off of Firefly, and thought it was odd. The dialogue was very passive-aggressivey, the hero suffered from Harrison Ford syndrome, and the plot centered around a naive teenage girl super-strong assassin or weapon whom they had to protect. Not a fan of it but I didn't dare admit it to my nephew :-(

The sexual politics of it seemed to say that young women are strong and chaotic, but needed to be shepherded/protected by a man so they wouldn't hurt themselves or others. Was that true of Buffy?

Not only was it true it was part of the entire cannon. Slayers needed a "watcher" to "guide" them. On the one occasion Buffy was appointed a female watcher she was mad for power and blew herself up with an enchanted glove.

IRRC Faith also had a female Watcher, but she was conveniently killed offscreen before Faith ever got to Sunnydale.

[Ladybug]

I never watched Buffy, Angel, or Firefly. My first Whedon movie was the Avengers. I liked the first film, the second one, Age of Ultron, was hot garbage and had a super creepy romantic subplot about Black Widow and Hulk. Somehow Natasha felt she was unworthy of love because she'd been sterilized at her spy school. WTF? I wanted to throw things at the screen. The only moment from that movie that's worth the pay off is Cap moving Mjollnir a fraction of an inch.

Ugh, in writing this post I checked his IMDB page to see if there were any other movies or shows he'd written that I liked and made the discovery that he wrote

SPOILER: Click to show

{Spoiler}the original Toy Story screenplay.

I spoilered that in case you would rather not know/remember the beloved Pixar classic that he wrote.